Down with Chavez - Page 3 - Political Forum

joep182 · #21 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Well you definitely have me at a loss over the laws of the land in your own country. I did start a thread for it before you posted this though. I have a feeling that there's more control in your laws than you are saying here. We'll see. How does the UK operate without a written constitution?

Ah good

I'll have a little think before i add to the debate on that front.

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

Well there was terrorism involved in Northern Ireland. It is legitimate to take down terrorist media as it broadcasts instructions to support terrorism. Will Chavez use it that way or in any legitimate way? I doubt it. Venezuelans will grow tired of Chavez, Chavez will find a scapegoat and say that he's a terrorist and then declare a state of emergency to extend his stay of power. He may turn out to be even less democratic than Pervez Musharraf.

The trouble is that there is a grey area over terrorism. As you say Chavez may turn round and just label people as terrorists who aren't and that i would be against. But again we done that with many young Irish boys who had nothing to do with terrorism - it was an abuse of the rules. But if Chavez arrests the people (who i'm sure you will have read on another thread i started) are intent on violence following the referendum, then to be me he would be justified as they would be terrorists to me, to others it will cause outrage though.

And as you said it is legitimate to clamp down on terrorist media. So my question to you is was Chavez then right to not renew RCTV's license, given that it encouraged the violent overthrowal of the government - which is far more than Sinn Fein did ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

OK, just out of curiosity, do you think it would be alright if Chavez declared himself dictator for life and then setup a communist state?

Given my political persuasion i would accept it and given he continued on the path he is on i would still support him. But that's not what i want to see happen. I honestly would rather he sticks with democracy (which coincedently i really believe he will) as i believe he has a unique chance to make socialism work in a relatively poor country. I believe that by continually improving his country and being continually re-elected helps the cause of all socialists and communists as it provides a shining example. It can give people in all countries the courage to vote Socialist rather than the view that is common now that it is a wasted vote. So i guess my answer is it would be alright but far from ideal.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #22 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joep182

And as you said it is legitimate to clamp down on terrorist media. So my question to you is was Chavez then right to not renew RCTV's license, given that it encouraged the violent overthrowal of the government - which is far more than Sinn Fein did ?

If you are referring to this story: Venezuelan Government Uncovers Video of Opposition Destabilization Plan | venezuelanalysis.com

I saw no reference being made to violence there. I read that the leaders were calling for protest, but no clear mention of violence being advocated there. As I believe in democracy as the best form of government, I would say that there is nothing wrong with protest.

joep182 · #23 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

If you are referring to this story: Venezuelan Government Uncovers Video of Opposition Destabilization Plan | venezuelanalysis.com

I saw no reference being made to violence there. I read that the leaders were calling for protest, but no clear mention of violence being advocated there. As I believe in democracy as the best form of government, I would say that there is nothing wrong with protest.

Not in the part that is quoted. In that i was referring to RCTV's role in the 2002 coup.

But i did say if those in the article do protest (violently) then they should be arrested and it could be classed as terrorism. But my main point is with regards to RCTV. If you think it is okay to clamp down on terrorist media then i would assume that not renewing RCTV's license was the right thing to do. I know it is a trivial point, i just wonder where you stand on it.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #24 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 12:51 AM

I would say that due to this event:

Online NewsHour: Upheaval in Venezuela - April 12, 2002

Quote:

Yesterday, Chavez ordered National Guard troops and civilian gunmen to fire on the nearly 200,000 protesters to stop them from reaching his palace. That bloodshed provoked yesterday's military intervention.

If Chavez opened fire with live ammunition on the protesters, then he lost his right to rule, and thus that any television station was right to encourage the military to overthrow Chavez. The incident in the quote box is central to my argument here. It depends on if Chavez oredered the brutal repression of a protest or not.

If Chavez did that, then the question of morality is no longer an issue as a person who crushes a protest like that should not even be in power in the first place.

joep182 · #25 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I would say that due to this event:

Online NewsHour: Upheaval in Venezuela - April 12, 2002

If Chavez opened fire with live ammunition on the protesters, then he lost his right to rule, and thus that any television station was right to encourage the military to overthrow Chavez. The incident in the quote box is central to my argument here. It depends on if Chavez oredered the brutal repression of a protest or not.

If Chavez did that, then the question of morality is no longer an issue as a person who crushes a protest like that should not even be in power in the first place.

That would be fair enough but WEB that view has been long discredited. Though i suppose that wouldn't get much coverage in the US, it certainly hasn't here. It was actually RCTV who shot the footage and are now known to have manipulated it. It was the protestors who fired on the Pro Chavez crowd that gathered. Then a few of the pro Chavez supporters responded. The un edited footage was later discovered and showed this to be true.

I suggest watching the first half hour of Pilgers The War on Democracy and The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. It was filmed by an Irish crew inside the palace as the coup took place. A lot will be revealed about what actually happened during the coup

If you do get the chance here is the links

THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED

The War On Democracy by John Pilger

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #26 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 01:52 AM

I did a background check on Pilger, he's very similar to Chomsky it seems. I'm watching the video though, I've seen it all from the far right to the far left in the US. I have no problem watching propaganda and drawing my own conclusions.

I would just like to say though, that Chavez IS a failure. Not only do I maintain that what he is currently doing is wrong, but in addition his overall radical/confrontational approach is inferior to the more pragmatic socialist approach of a far more intelligent Latin American leader (Lula Da Silva).

WEB

joep182 · #27 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I did a background check on Pilger, he's very similar to Chomsky it seems. I'm watching the video though, I've seen it all from the far right to the far left in the US. I have no problem watching propaganda and drawing my own conclusions.

Yeah i would say comparing him to Chomsky isn't an unfair thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I would just like to say though, that Chavez IS a failure. Not only do I maintain that what he is currently doing is wrong, but in addition his overall radical/confrontational approach is inferior to the more pragmatic socialist approach of a far more intelligent Latin American leader (Lula Da Silva).

WEB

I think when you are dealing with imperialists who seek to control you, a confrontational approach is required. Da Silva does many good things but he perhaps panders to the upper classes. Ultimately i think confrontation is a necessity in trying to mould a classless society, and Chavez is the best at that since Fidel himself

In Brazil they are beginning to go down the road of the European socialist parties IMO, and that direction as away from socialism to capitalism. Chavez is the last hope for humanity

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #28 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joep182

I think when you are dealing with imperialists who seek to control you, a confrontational approach is required. Da Silva does many good things but he perhaps panders to the upper classes. Ultimately i think confrontation is a necessity in trying to mould a classless society, and Chavez is the best at that since Fidel himself

In Brazil they are beginning to go down the road of the European socialist parties IMO, and that direction as away from socialism to capitalism. Chavez is the last hope for humanity

.....

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #29 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 01:40 PM

I do want to correct myself on something here. Venezuela's economy has been surging recently. The economy grew at about 11% in 2006 and will probably grow some 7% this year. Although critics point to high inflation (some 15%) the economy has grown rapidly in the past few years and there's no denying that. The reason is high oil prices, but nonetheless it's important that the facts be known.

CEPR - New CEPR Paper Looks At Venezuela's Economy During the Chávez Years

Quote:

Since the bottom of that downturn in the first quarter of 2003, Venezuela's real GDP has grown by 76 percent.

Moreover, the private sector is still a larger share of the economy than it was before President Chávez took office.

In real (inflation-adjusted) terms, social spending per person has increased by 170 percent during the period 1998-2006. But this does not include the state oil company PDVSA’s social spending, which was 7.3 percent of GDP in 2006. With this included, social spending was at least 314 percent more in 2006 than in 1998 (in terms of real social spending per person). This has brought about significant gains for the poor in health care, subsidized food, and access to education, some of which are detailed in the paper.

The official poverty rate, which measures only cash income and does not include such advances as increased access to health care and education, has dropped by 31 percent from 1998 to the end of 2006 – from 43.9 percent of households to 30.6 percent. Measured unemployment has dropped from 15 percent in June 1999 to 8.3 percent in June 2007.

UPDATE 1-Venezuelan economy grew 8.9 pct in Q2 -cenbank | News | Economic News | Reuters

Quote:

CARACAS, Aug 14 (Reuters) - Venezuela's economy grew 8.9 percent in the second quarter, the central bank said on Tuesday, but the OPEC nation's all-vital oil sector shrank by 3.9 percent as the state boosted its involvement in oilfields.

Venezuela has witnessed an economic boom under President Hugo Chavez thanks to soaring oil prices and heavy government spending, but inflation and slumping oil production remain nagging problems.

The non-oil sector grew by 10.8 percent, spurred largely by the banking and communications sectors, the central bank said.

But private sector oil GDP tumbled 11.6 percent as Chavez edged out U.S. oil companies ConocoPhillips (COP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) and Exxon Mobil Corp (XOM.N: Quote, Profile, Research) in the takeover of four oil projects as part of his self-styled socialist revolution.

Venezuela had a second-quarter current account surplus of $5.13 billion, down from $8.54 billion a year earlier, while the financial account deficit grew to $11.53 billion compared to $9.36 billion a year earlier.

The economy grew 10.3 percent in 2006 and 8.8 percent in the first quarter of 2007, but twelve-month inflation to July was the highest on the continent, at 17.2 percent.

Red Pepper's Venezuela Blog: Joseph Stiglitz, in Caracas, Praises Venezuelaâ€™s Economic Policies

Quote:

Joseph Stiglitz, in Caracas, Praises Venezuela’s Economic Policies

By Kiraz Janicke – Venezuelanalysis.com

Thursday, October 11, 2007

Caracas, October 11, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com) - Nobel Prize winning economist and former vice-president of the World Bank, Joseph Stiglitz, praised Venezuela's economic growth and "positive policies in health and education" during a visit to Caracas on Wednesday.

"Venezuela's economic growth has been very impressive in the last few years," Stiglitz said during his speech at a forum on Strategies for Emerging Markets sponsored by the Bank of Venezuela.

Venezuela, the fourth largest exporter of crude oil to the United States, has experienced the highest economic growth rate in Latin America in recent years, with fifteen successive quarters of expansion and looks set to close the year with 8-9% growth. Despite the high rate of growth, high public spending and increased consumer demand have contributed to inflationary pressures, pushing inflation up to 15.3%, also the highest in Latin America. However, Stiglitz, who won the Nobel Prize for economics in 2001, argued that relatively high inflation isn't necessarily harmful to the economy.

He added that while Venezuela's economic growth has largely been driven by high oil prices, unlike other oil producing countries, Venezuela has taken advantage of the boom in world oil prices to implement policies that benefit its citizens and promote economic development.

"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez appears to have had success in bringing health and education to the people in the poor neighborhoods of Caracas, to those who previously saw few benefits of the countries oil wealth," he said.

In his latest book "Making Globalization Work," Stiglitz argues that left governments such as in Venezuela, "have frequently been castigated and called ‘populist' because they promote the distribution of benefits of education and health to the poor."

"It is not only important to have sustainable growth," Stiglitz continued during his speech, "but to ensure the best distribution of economic growth, for the benefit of all citizens."

Although Stiglitz praised Venezuela's "positive policies" in areas of health and education and policies to promote economic diversification, he assured that Venezuela still faces the challenge of overcoming structural problems associated with an economy overwhelmingly geared towards oil production.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #30 (**permalink**) 12-02-2007, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joep182

I think when you are dealing with imperialists who seek to control you, a confrontational approach is required. Da Silva does many good things but he perhaps panders to the upper classes. Ultimately i think confrontation is a necessity in trying to mould a classless society, and Chavez is the best at that since Fidel himself

In Brazil they are beginning to go down the road of the European socialist parties IMO, and that direction as away from socialism to capitalism. Chavez is the last hope for humanity

Chavez's policies are supported by high oil prices and Venezuela's GDP is booming due to that. Inflation is also booming, and that's something that has to be addressed. I think that Chavez is too much of a divider in his own country and his rhetoric makes him appear insane abroad.

Chavez could have been a much more effective leader if he had just lowered the tone of his rhetoric. There has been a lot of capital flight out of Venezuela and I think that is because did not do enough to unite his country. Chavez will probably do a lot to help the poor of Venezuela in the coming years (due to high oil prices). It remains to be seen how high he can keep oil output.

WEB