A Tale of Two Johns - Political Forum

Tokenconservative · 08-07-2007, 09:24 AM

John is 18 years old and a high school graduate this summer.

He's never been much for school, and college is not something he has any plans for. But he's always been pretty good with his hands, so he's hoping to get a job as a house framer, to train and pick up some experience in that trade and to hopefully make it his career.

Juan is a 32-year-old from Jalisco, Mexico. He attended public school to the 8th grade, as is the law in Mexico. After that, he went to work, first as a mason's helper, then in various others of the building trades including framing.

John spots an add for framers in the paper. He shows up to apply on the job site. At the same time, he notices an older, "Hispanic" fellow there, who seems not to speak any English, but has a tool belt filled with tools around his waist.

John shrugs, fills out the application and writes in that though he doesn't have any professional experience in framing, he's taken lots of shop classes and thinks that with some training, he'll be a good framer.

John doesn't get the job. A week later, he's passing the same job site and notices the older "Hispanic" guy he'd seen, framing a house.

Juan got the job John applied for. Why? It's really pretty simple: the employer would have to be a fool not to hire Juan, an illegal alien and instead hire John. Why? Simple: Juan has close to 15 years experience under his belt...and that belt is a tool belt fool of the tools of the trade. So by hiring the illegal, the employer not only gets an already-experienced tradesman whom the empoyer will not need to go through the trouble and expense of training, and who won't need a pay-advance to buy tools.

Better still, since Juan is illegal, though he won't work for any less than a legal resident or citizen with the same qualifications, the employer won't have to pay the in-kind contribution for FICA, nor pay for unemployment insurance or workers compensation insurance. Also, in many cities where the employer builds, a tax is levied on each employee. Since Juan is "off the books" those fees will also be saved. Oh, and since Juan is off the books, the employer just cuts him a check or hands him a wad of $100s at the end of the week...there's no bookkeeping or accounting costs at all!

Meanwhile John has tried and tried to get hired as an apprentice framer. He even got a loan floated from his step-dad for a tool belt and tools. Unfortunately, those tools will go unused, because John simply can't get hired as a trainee framer starting at $10.00/hr and working up to $20/25 in a couple or three years. Instead, John has three jobs. Nights, he stocks shelves part tim in a liquor store. On Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays he sells cell phones from a kiosk in the mall. The rest of the week he works in a call center boiler room trying to set up insurance appointments. He earns $7/hr at the liquor store, is commission only at the kiost and earns another $8/hr setting appointments by phone. It's unlikely any of these jobs will lead to anything more than doing the same thing forever. He sucks at the selling job and hates the other two. But try as he might, he just can't get hired as a framer or in any of the other trades he's tried to break into.

Tell me again how 30 million illegals hurt no one and are only here to work the "jobs Americans won't do!!"

Tokie

emptypepsi · 08-07-2007, 04:11 PM

Well, your story here, which has no source or indication that this is anything more than some fairy-tale you made up or overexaggerated, doesn't really prove your point for you. It just comes off as emotionally driven rather than logically driven.

Tokenconservative · 08-07-2007, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptypepsi

Well, your story here, which has no source or indication that this is anything more than some fairy-tale you made up or overexaggerated, doesn't really prove your point for you. It just comes off as emotionally driven rather than logically driven.

I suppose. I believe the Romanticists fought that one out though and came to the conclusion that the mind without the heart is as useless as the heart without the mind.

The point is that despite what you would like to believe, not every kid in America is headed for nor necessarily WANTS to head for college and that does not mean, as we are told in the media, that those who don't, become Bill Gates.

Some just are not suited to college and higher learning.

So what's left for them to do in America?

Well, not much. Most manufacturing is gone, and most trades jobs are taken by illegals. Of course you know this or that guy who works concrete or framing or whatever, and those single-file Indians prove your argument quite nicely that not ALL trades jobs are taken by illegals.

Nonetheless, many are...more than should be. In fact, if even one is taken by an illegal, that's more than should be. If one John is not able to enter the work world as his father and grandfather might have, by taking a job as an apprentice or trainee, learning it, building skills and so forth to become a skilled tradesman who can make a reasonably decent living at it, then it's too many.

Tokie

Aegis · 08-07-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

I suppose. I believe the Romanticists fought that one out though and came to the conclusion that the mind without the heart is as useless as the heart without the mind.

The point is that despite what you would like to believe, not every kid in America is headed for nor necessarily WANTS to head for college and that does not mean, as we are told in the media, that those who don't, become Bill Gates.

Some just are not suited to college and higher learning.

So what's left for them to do in America?

Well, not much. Most manufacturing is gone, and most trades jobs are taken by illegals. Of course you know this or that guy who works concrete or framing or whatever, and those single-file Indians prove your argument quite nicely that not ALL trades jobs are taken by illegals.

Nonetheless, many are...more than should be. In fact, if even one is taken by an illegal, that's more than should be. If one John is not able to enter the work world as his father and grandfather might have, by taking a job as an apprentice or trainee, learning it, building skills and so forth to become a skilled tradesman who can make a reasonably decent living at it, then it's too many.

Tokie

How many jobs in the skilled trades are occupied by illegal aliens?

emptypepsi · 08-07-2007, 04:39 PM

See, NOW I would say this is a compelling topic. You should put stuff like your post 3 IN with a story like the OP. But posting a story and treating it like it's an epidemic-like situation in the country didn't seem productive to getting your point across the best way.

As to your point, this I would agree with (as far asintuition), but you'd have to find numbers that thoroughly support such a claim in order to turn eyebrows and minds. It's making an awful big claim about the country today. If you do, this could turn into a reaallly interesting discussion.

Tokenconservative · 08-13-2007, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegis

How many jobs in the skilled trades are occupied by illegal aliens?

Many.

Depends on what you mean by "skilled trades," too. Go to any construction site in any state south of the Mason-Dixon, in NY, in Chicago, too, and you will find most framing, masonry, landscaping, roofing, interior finish and some electrical and plumbing and mechanical jobs being done by illegals.

Tokie

Tokenconservative · 08-13-2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by emptypepsi

See, NOW I would say this is a compelling topic. You should put stuff like your post 3 IN with a story like the OP. But posting a story and treating it like it's an epidemic-like situation in the country didn't seem productive to getting your point across the best way.

As to your point, this I would agree with (as far asintuition), but you'd have to find numbers that thoroughly support such a claim in order to turn eyebrows and minds. It's making an awful big claim about the country today. If you do, this could turn into a reaallly interesting discussion.

And you believe what, that large construction companies advertise how many illegals they employ?

Two problems:
1. Where would anyone go to get such numbers (that could be trusted),
2. In an utterly PC country, we (those of us who do know) know that it's almost illegal to identify and illegal for what he or she is without encountering the typical shriek of "RACCCCCCIIIIIISSSSTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!"

Tokie

theorderoflife · 09-02-2007, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aegis

How many jobs in the skilled trades are occupied by illegal aliens?

I work in construction. I'm in the H/VAC field. Heating and air for those not familiar. I can tell that on new construction, 85-90 percent are non-english speaking or very limited in english hispanics. The only non-hispanics I have seen are the electricians, plumbers and H/VAC. The famers, masonaries, sheet rockers, majority of the trim guys, and painters are all hispanics. The only wood craft I haven't seen them on is stair installation. My dad has been in the construction business for 30 years and he'd tell you the same thing. On the subject of them doing jobs Americans won't, I tried getting a job for Alltel as a sale rep and lost it to a hispanic even though I was more qualified just because I don't speak fluent spanish. In America, I shouldn't have to.