we know that there are more than 12,000,000 illegal immigrants that currently work, and/or live in the United States of America....

1. Amnesty-this will give illegals the chance to be naturalized and pay taxes
2. Deportation-this will cause unrest no doubt, but decrease the losses of government funds
3. Genocide-CERTAINLY NOT A GOOD IDEA

and there are more other possible solutions

what do you think the american government should do about this crisis that continues to cause tension in the american political system and debate among the citizens that live in america

__________________

Let us speak out and proclaim our views and ideologies. As rational beings, let us set boundaries based on our standards of decency.
Astra non mentiuntur, sed astrologi bene mentiuntur de astris... Aude sapere!

1. I don't know where you live, but a more realistic number is 30 million, and it's probably more like 40 million. And it appears you have either no knowledge of what the Bush-Kennedy Scamnesty bill was about to do, or a marked inability to do simple math.

Let me help: it was going to grant immediate citizenship to "12 million" illegals.

Ok, let's use that laughably low number

12 million
+
12 million spouses
= 24 million
+ (avg., being kind) two children for each
= 48 million
+ one set of parents for the husband
= 72 million
+ one set of parents for the wife
= 96 million
+ their minor children (again, being kind..let's call it two per couple)
= 144 million.

Using the above algorithim, let's see if you can "do the math" for the real numbers of illegals here, at least 20 million and probably more than 30, but let's work with say, 25, just to make it easy?

Now, as a good leftist, very, very concerned about not only these poor people's welfare, but the environment...can you tell me how we will pay for their schooling, their social services and how we will mitigate their impact on the environment?

2. We won't need to deport them (most, anyhow) if we simply enforce existing laws against those who employ them. Once you perp-walk a single Fortune 500 CEO off to a long, long stint at Leavenworth, say or Supermax in Colorado, the very next day, every illegal in the country will be unemployed. They will self-deport.

3. What are you talking about? What rational person is talking about "genocide"? What does this even mean?

Our government needs to do this: enforce the laws on the books against employers who employ them and the problem solves itself with very little mess and very little cost.

Now my question for you: why is this so hard to understand?


Tokie

The OP is deceptive. It paints Amnesty as the 'only' answer, despite it's subsequent "oh yeah, there's others too" ending. Amnesty will not solve the problem, neither will deporting nor building a wall. None of these addresses WHY illegals come to the country. You take away the incentive, you take away the problem.

My solution:

* Increase the amount of legals a year (if anti-illegal proponents have "no problem with legals" as it is popularly opined, there should be no problem here). And I mean increase it. This will make the process of coming legally more alluring than risking illegal entry.

* Enforce laws on employers hiring illegals and increase funding to enforcing visa expirations (many illegals who are here simply overstayed their visas). This will further decrease the incentive to come illegally - if there are no jobs for illegals, many will have no reason to come.

* For those already here, accomodations can be made to get them on a track to a green card. However, they must be made to leave the country before applying. They also will be given no special considerations ahead of those who have waited patiently, as this is unfair to those who have abided by our requests.

By increasing legals and enforcing the laws on employers, illegal entry will be at a decreased incentive and coming the right way will look much more alluring. Will those in D.C. have the common sense to realize anything other than "put a big wall up" or "let em' stay, guys"? I'd like to think so but I'm really afraid not.

__________________
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

I don't know that it's purposely deceptive so much as the illogic of an inexpert debator. The OP's entire argument is based in the logical fallacy of the false dilemma: there are only two possible alternatives.

Rational people know there are at least dozens.

1. Perhaps a good idea to increase the in flow as needed. How many are you talking about? 1800? 20,000? 20 million? A billion? And you engage in the basest form of logical fallacy in your snide little aside about this that implies (assumes) "racism!!!" on the part of anyone "really" okay with immigration.

2. Two different issues. Yes, enforce the laws, and throw the book at a couple or three CEOs. I will bet anyone in here my next year's salary against theirs, that if we saw just ONE CEO perp-walked into Leavenworth facing a 30-40 years sentence of hardtime in a max. security fed lockup, every illegal in this country would be out of work the very next day, and self-deporting w/in three weeks. Any takers?

3. Enforcing existing immigration laws...yes...put the funding in place to keep track of visa holders; change things a bit...if people on probation have to check in, make sure their address, etc. are up to date, why don't these visitors, especially post-9-11?

4. Indeed. A good approach: go home, then come back the normal way. I don't have a problem with forgiving their initial crime of coming here illegally IF they have been gainfully employed, have not commited other crimes (non-immigration related) while here and if they make these restitutions: to our tax system, to our social welfare systems and to anyone who they harmed by using false identity. Then they should be free to get in line behind those from all over the world who often wait DECADES to earn the privelege of being a US citizen.

5. No, those in DC will not have this sense. Not because they generally lack common sense, but because you have to follow the money. Why do you think this is virtually the only thing right and left are foresquare behind together not only in DC, but in virtually every state and even at municipal levels? Why are Dems who 6 mos. ago were calling Bush the devil, are buddying up to him over this...I remind you: it was the Bush-KENNEDY Scamnesty bill. I can't think of two more seemingly disparate individuals....SEEEMINGLY. Clearly, their masters are one-in-the same and those masters are big businesses.

Tokie

I agree wholeheartedly. What infuriates me is the reason they hire so many illegals would seem to be that you can't outsource what they do. A call center or a car company can move their operations but our hotels, our lawns and our golf courses must remain here.
These companies were not going out of business on a regular basis BEFORE the influx of illegals so it follows that they just want to make MORE money and the government will look the other way as regards immigration laws.
Now, there's certainly nothing wrong with making as much money as you can, but you must do so within the law.

And I don't believe the excuse that they hire illegals to do jobs Americans refuse to do. I think it's more they don't want to work for what these companies will PAY. Again, if they can hire an illegal worker (who can't run to the labor board if he gets screwed) for less than a fair wage for a certain position, plus avoiding other costs like health care, unemployment contributions and overtime, they can easily make more money.
But they are breaking the law to do it. But there's no better way to get around a law than by bribing the people who create and enforce those laws, which goes right back to your line which I quoted.

__________________
Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

1. We currently allow a shade over a million a year. There's really no reason we can't up the number to 2-3 million in a five year transition. Besides, given the looming baby boom retirement, this could work out to our advantage.

2, 3. I see this as an interrelated issue. They are the reason illegals come. If there were no jobs, why would they even risk the trek to get here by land, air, or sea? Employers are arguably the reason for this issue.

4. To me, the aspect of their having committed a crime while illegal is sort of irrelevant (in a manner of speaking), as there's no way to keep track of it or judge honestly once they've become legal. Once they become legal, then they're fair game for deportations, etc. in my opinion.

__________________
"The saddest aspect of life right now is that science gathers knowledge faster than society gathers wisdom."
Isaac Asimov

Current attitudes toward illegal immigrants are reminiscent of American attitude toward Asians from 1850-1950: both provided cheap labor; both stirred intense xenophobia; both were accused of "taking away American jobs"; both were feared that their remittances would drain money away from the economy (obviously they aren't economists); both were threats created by politicians...i could go on for awhile. Of course, the difference is that back then, most of the immigrants were legally here; America just didn't want them anymore. What the US has lacked since 1950 is an immigration policy that works...which leads us to today.

In reality, we INsource more (and better) work than we outsource. But your point is taken.

Your second point is what worries me. Though you appear to understand the problem, you also seem to have accepted the "jobs Americans won't do!!" screed. It really is not a matter of Americans not taking these jobs at "this" pay. In fact, it's rare to find an illegal working for the pennies-on-the-dollar wages that various champions of illegals claim. These illegals (not Chinese girls you find in sex-slave brothels) work for the same as would any American doing the same job. That's a function of the marketplace. So, if an American framer would make $18/hr, so does the illegal one. The employer still has to compete among the illegals for the best ones.

Employes find illegals attractive because of the ancillary benefit of their not having to worry about all those persnickety fees, taxes, workers comp, unemployment, FICA and other in-kinds and more, the associated bookkeeping and accounting that goes with employing someone legally.

Don't kid yourself. Where the employers save is not on the wages. You don't hire a 14 yr old illegal with not skills, not tools, no experience to frame a $3 million house for $.14/day. Not, anyway, if you ever want to build a second house.

American companies save BILLIONS, not through wages, but in saving of these ancillary costs, especially the accounting costs. It costs $.03 to write the check the illegal cashes at a PayDay Loans outlet.

It's time to change the language of this debate and stop using that of the proponents of illegal immigration.

Tokie

1. 3-5 million sounds okay. The just-defeated Bush-Kennedy Scamnesty, would've put "12" (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!) million overnight. Of course, they are already here, and the number is closer to 30, and perhaps as much as 40 million. One of the reasons our physical and social infrastructure (highways, facilities, schools, healthcare, etc.) are in such dire straits is because of the overwhelming numbers of these people who are here. In many cities in the Southwest, you cannot be hired as a public school teacher unless you speak Spanish fluently. What's wrong with this picture?

However, most Baby Boomers are not retiring from ditchdiggin and hotel maid service jobs. So that retirement wave will not be impacted by the influx of tens of millions of "Manuel" laborers.

2. Indeed. While some still claim they are coming to "take back" the lands stolen from Mexico by the US as some sort of quixotic, grassroots Aztlan movement, rational minds agree that if the jobs were not here, they would not be here. So it only stands to reason if the jobs were to go away, so would the illegals. Currently, because the $$ savings employers enjoy by hiring illegals over legal resident/citizen Americans (and this has nothing to do with wages) is so attractive, and the risks so mini...well, non-existent, there is no incentive NOT to hire illegals. In fact, if you are an employer of this sort of labor and you don't, you are very likely going to find yourself out of business in short order. Of course, that is part of the plan, too.

3. I can forgive the illegal crossing. But they simply cannot live here without, almost daily, committing other, more "serious" crimes, mostly economic: they need to pay back for their kids' schooling, their healthcare any social welfare they've scammed and they need to make whole those whose lives they've disrupted by using other's identity.

Tokie

Yeah....that's it. I am xenophobic.

Oh...you forgot: I am racist, too!

Sheesh.

Yes, there was the xenophobia and racial factor regarding Chinese immigration, and more, Irish and Italian, and Greek, as well!

Your argument lacks logic, however. It may be that in 1890, you saw signs in shop windows that said "Help wanted. Irish Need Not Apply."

Um...can you tell me where you've seen a "help wanted" sign or add that said "Latins need not apply" in say, the last 40-50 years? Wait...you are saying that xenophobia and racism are driving the CURRENT anti ILLEGAL immigration atmosphere...so, please tell me where I can go to see such a sign, TODAY.

Why must proponents of the scamnesty (and they come from both sides of the political aisle, but my gut tells me this poster is firmly left of Chomsky), attempt the claim that opposition to a virtual invasion of people entering our country illegally is racist and/or xenophobic? And why must they always couch it in terms that seem to um...forget that one, niggling (did he say "nigg"ling!?) detail, the fact that these people are um...well, entering America...ILLEGALLY?

Try putting that work in front of the word "immigrant" the next time you post on this subject. Then the next time, and the next. Before long, you'll find that the two just seem to go together in discussion of um...well, ILLEGAL immigratiion!

Tokie