Originally Posted by Troianii

I would propose that we allow a larger number of immigrants into our country every year, but set stricter quotas on where. Each year we will end up with 200,000 Mexican immigrants but they all live together. Anyone from Maine knows that in the last 10 years we've seen our first Somalis come here, and we now have thousands upon thousands living in pockets.

It is desirable to have immigrants that assimilate, but it is undesirable to have immigrants that don't. What are have being built today is separate Americas. You have the Mexican America, the Somali America, and so on, and the racial division is real. If we let these people live almost exclusively with people from their homeland in pockets with same culture, same language, we are letting them live in another America.

Originally Posted by Troianii

II find that the quotas for immigrant nationalities are unimportant. We should look to the most qualified/needed, but as far as quotas the real need is to set quotas for individual areas. If we allow 200,000 people into our country, we have 300,000,000 then we are letting in 1:1500 of our own people. The 200,000 Mexican immigrants end up making a majority of whatever city they live in, and don't mix in and assimilate. I would propose that the real quotas be for certain areas, like states and cities, not for the nation.

Originally Posted by Benjamin Franklin

I am perfectly of your mind, that measures of great Temper are necessary with the Germans: and am not without Apprehensions, that thro' their indiscretion or Ours, or both, great disorders and inconveniences may one day arise among us; Those who come hither are generally of the most ignorant Stupid Sort of their own Nation, and as Ignorance is often attended with Credulity when Knavery would mislead it, and with Suspicion when Honesty would set it right; and as few of the English understand the German Language, and so cannot address them either from the Press or Pulpit, 'tis almost impossible to remove any prejudices they once entertain. Their own Clergy have very little influence over the people; who seem to take an uncommon pleasure in abusing and discharging the Minister on every trivial occasion. Not being used to Liberty, they know not how to make a modest use of it; and as Kolben says of the young Hottentots, that they are not esteemed men till they have shewn their manhood by beating their mothers, so these seem to think themselves not free, till they can feel their liberty in abusing and insulting their Teachers. Thus they are under no restraint of Ecclesiastical Government; They behave, however, submissively enough at present to the Civil Government which I wish they may continue to do: For I remember when they modestly declined intermeddling in our Elections, but now they come in droves, and carry all before them, except in one or two Counties; Few of their children in the Country learn English; they import many Books from Germany; and of the six printing houses in the Province, two are entirely German, two half German half English, and but two entirely English; They have one German News-paper, and one half German. Advertisements intended to be general are now printed in Dutch and English; the Signs in our Streets have inscriptions in both languages, and in some places only German: They begin of late to make all their Bonds nad other legal Writings in their own Language, which (though I think it ought not to be) are allowed good in our Courts, where the German Business so encreases that there is continual need of Interpreters; and I suppose in a few years they will be also necessary in the Assembly, to tell one half of our Legislators what the other half say; In short unless the stream of their importation could be turned from this to other colonies, as you very judiciously propose, they will soon so out number us, that all the advantages we have will not in My Opinion be able to preserve our language, and even our Government will become precarious. The French who watch all advantages, are now themselves making a German settlement back of us in the Ilinoes Country, and by means of those Germans they may in time come to an understanding with ours, and indeed in the last war our Germans shewed a general disposition that seems to bode us no good; for when the English who were not Quakers, alarmed by the danger arising from the defenceless state of our Country entered unanimously into an Association within this Government and the lower Countries raised armed and Disciplined near 10,000 men, the Germans except a very few in proportion to their numbers refused to engage in it, giving out one among another, and even in print, that if they were quiet the French should they take the Country would not molest them; at the same time abusing the Philadelphians for fitting out Privateers against the Enemy; and representing the trouble hazard and Expence of defending the Province, as a greater inconvenience than any that might be expected from a change of Government. Yet I am not for refusing entirely to admit them into our Colonies: all that seems to be necessary is, to distribute them more equally, mix them with the English, establish English Schools where they are now too thick settled, and take some care to prevent the practice lately fallen into by some of the Ship Owners, of sweeping the German Goals to make up the number of their Passengers. I say I am not against the Admission of Germans in general, for they have their Virtues, their industry and frugality is exemplary; They are excellent husbandmen and contribute greatly to the improvement of a Country.

Originally Posted by emptypepsi

Again, why do you think the government's job is to curb societal integration? It never has been before. It is largely up to American born people to help them integrate, which is the only medium that immigrants have to integrate into society (via society itself). They don't go through government officials to learn about society and what is generally acceptable in public here. Did you?

They live in pockets like this also because citizens move away at the first sign of immigrants. How does this help them integrate, via by ostrasizing them?

Sorry, I see a lot of fault in the actions of illegals, but citizens are not free from scrutiny. The government is also not there to play social nanny for us.

Show me where Vicente Fox said that about coming to take land back.

Originally Posted by perdidochas

Ben Franklin said the same about the Germans. He said that they should be settled in areas besides Pennsylvania, as they were not assimilating....

Ben was wrong.



See Ben's quote below (emphasis added)

Originally Posted by Troianii

My point is not the blame game. I am not saying that the blame for the problems lie with the immigrants or with the natives. As far as people moving away at the first sight of immigrants, what I am suggesting (again, not the blame game) would, among other things, prevent that flight. Immigrants generally come to an area and make it their own, and that is largely why the natives there leave, besides simple land value.

Originally Posted by Troianii

And I think that you are still misunderstanding what I am suggesting. I am not saying that the immigrants do or should go through the government to learn about our society and assimilate, but rather that they need to be in contact with our society in order to assimilate to it. If a Mexican comes to America and in reality there is no change except for the name of where they are, then the people won't assimilate and, even generations later, they will still be living in "Mexico". As a popular culture example, if you have seen Spanglish they point out that even when they came to America they had never really left Mexico until they went to work for the Claskys.

Originally Posted by Troianii

"We are Mexicans that live in our territories and we are Mexicans that live in other territories [America - primarily the Southwestern United States]. In reality, we are 120 million people [100 million in Mexico and the rest in America] that live together and are working to construct a nation" -Fox

The Fox quote is a side issue, I wouldn't care so much to go in depth on the other issues that spread light on the issue, they are irrelevant to the present discussion.

Really, really, really bad example.

1. Germans made up 1/3 of our nation when we revolted.
2. The English language is closer German than it is to any other language.
3. The German language is closer to English than it is to any other language (with few, minor exceptions).
4. The Germans and the English, or the Anglo-Saxons, are from almost the same stock (Hitler didn't want war with England because he considered them to be of Germanic blood)
5. The Germans and English in America had very similiar religious beleifs.
6. In 1608, Germans were among those who accompanied John Smith to found Jamestown, Virginia.
7. Germans brought the decorated Christmas tree.
8. A German wrote the first handbook for the U.S. Army.


The Germans had so much in common with the English in America, the "in-place" culture, made up a large contingency of our population since before we were a nation, were among the first here, brought integral parts of our culture, shed their blood alongside us, and tried to assimilate as few other groups did. Still, though they came here with John Smith, German was still taught as a primary language in many cases up to 1880, and until the Great War was still taught bilingual, with many classes in German and, even after the Great War, church services in German. The Germans had much more in common with us than the Mexicans do, and still it took them nearly three centuries to assimilate, and even 350 years into the game there were still many (although no longer a large contingent of the population) that had not assimilated. Tell me, even when we put aside the fact that we have greater differences with the Mexicans in all areas, do you think that we should wait 300+ years for assimilation to "hopefully" come to pass, with a culture more different from ours than German?