only --------- will immigrate.

Fill in the gaps and work out for yourself why the argument - "I don't mind immigrants, but illegals should be sent home because they are breaking the law" is stupid.

You make a compelling arguement.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Would you like to elaborate any. Please do, I have a feeling this is going to be good.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Don't complain about immigrants being illegal. It's like King Kanute standing on the shore and ordering the tide to stop, and then complaining that the sea broke the law when it soaked him. People will go where the money is. It's human nature. You can pass laws against it just like you can pass laws restricting trade, but all you are denying is trying to restrict an essential human activity which will happen no matter what laws you pass (through loopholes or through people simply breaking the law).

WOW

Yeah, what an unreasonable thing to do.

This is the worst analogy I have ever heard.

Have you ever heard of state soveriegnty? Your argument is ridiculous. You obviously have no logical reason for wanting to let illegals into our country, so there must be a personal one. Are you an illegal? Did you marry and illegal? It has to be something because it is hard for me to believe that someone can feel so strongly about something that they can hardly make sense about. No offense, but your whole argument seems to be that you simply have a different opinion and that anyone who disagrees with your point of view is stupid. That is a sure fire way to tell when someone is speaking more out of emotion and less out of logic.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

I think it is unreasonable. If a law is stupid, people will disobey it, like they did in the prohibition. Blame the legislators and the people trying to restrict the freedom of others, not the people who refuse to obey restrictive laws preventing them from exercising what should be basic rights.

I think you missed the point. People go where the money is, you can't prevent immigration, nor should you try to, because it's a natural part of capitalism. You speak about state sovereignity as if it is something which can never be violated, yet the state is simply an artificial construct. If it taxes people excessively, they will find ways to not pay their taxes - similairly, if it restricts their freedom of movement, they will find ways to move illegally.

When a state seeks to put limits on trade it simply, in the long-term, obstructs the creation of wealth. Well this is my belief anyway. Hand in hand with this, I'd say that you can't logically put stricter limits on the free movement of human beings than you put on the movement of goods and services, because they are inextricably linked. I say that the less limits there are on either, the freer and more succesful the society. Hope that clears it up.

No I caught that. People do go where the money is, if they have any sense about them. But I think the mexicans are taking advantage of a priviledge that people from other countries can not simply say "fuck it, I'll just cross the border." We have people all over the world that want to come over here and they are getting the shaft because these people got the wise idea to come over here by the millions, and then have the nerve to bitch about our laws. What are we supposed to tell the people from the other countries? "Sorry, we would let you come over, but the mexicans are being pushy ass holes?"

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

But that is absurd. I think that pot should be legalized, but I don't go around smoking it and bitching about people who get punished for smoking it. This is a shoot first, ask questions later way of thinking.

They are creating wealth for mexico.

Have you ever read up on how we would be treated if we broke into mexico?

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

I don't think you should place limits on immigration. Who gets to decide who's alllowed in and who isn't? I say, immigrants should not get any governemnt support, and therefore, only the ones that find work will stay. Let nature take it's course. That's the beauty of capitalism - nobody decides your fate for you, you just look after yourself, nobody judges whether one human is worth more than another.

On another thread I read you saying that "the day the US government starts telling people what to do with their property and taking it off them is the day I either leave, or start blowing up train tracks" (ok the wording isn't perfect but that's the gist of it). So there ARE circumstances when you would break the law. There are circumstances when we all break laws. In fact, there are laws which are so wrong, that it's wrong to respect them.

If they are working in the American economy, they are creating wealth for the US as well. This reminds me of when people complain about US companies exploiting third world country's and sending the welath home - well yes they do this, but they are also providing a service and employment in the country in which they operate, and it's up to that country to use that wealth for it's own advantage. You can't tell people where to send the money they worked for, but you can be sure that if it's coming from your country, you ar getting something in return (unless it is thieving or corruption or welfare state abuse, but I hope you know that I am not arguing in favour of these things).

EDIT - also, it's only by Mexico becoming wealthier that Mexicans will stop wanting to emigrate, so creating wealth for Mexico is a good thing. Consider the trading opportunities of having a wealthy country the size of Mesico as a neighbour? All wealth creation is beneficial.


So you want to become more like Mexico then? Consider the idea it's beneficial to YOU that you society be as free and open as possible.

Well I would agree with you on this, but the way our society is they won't let survival of the fittest (smartest, ambitious, etc) take place. The ones who do not perform will not leave because their life on welfare would still be better than busting their ass in Mexico.

If the laws go against the constitution than it can not be a just law and goes against our basic freedoms. The one thing that the federal government should be doing right now is watching our border, not half the other shit they are busy with. Keeping weed illegal doesn't infringe on my freedoms to prosper, having the government confiscate private property does.

IWell, I will admit that you are coming from a whole different direction than I thought at first. My first impression was that you were just one of those blubbering emotional, "lets all get along" folks. I can kind of see where you are coming from and it kind of makes sense, and if we lived in a perfect world, I might agree with you, but I just don't see how we could just let capitolism do it's thing when we have so many social programs over here too. Sorry if I came off as a dick head, I'm sick as fuck and in a bad mood and the first post really got me off on the wrong foot with this thread. I think your third post should have been your first post.


No, I just find it a little ridiculous for mexico to give us so much shit about not accepting their millions of illegals, and then have kick ass immigration laws for themselves.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.