Voland

The Ukrainian parliament has voted to call the forced famines of the 1930´s a genocide, in a move that could pave the way for compensation claims against Russia...

Stalin's Legacy: Ukraine Parliament Votes to Call 1930s Famine Genocide - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

joep182

It's a myth of history that the famine was stalin's fault. It was the peasants who burned crops and slaughtered livestock, not Stalin. Stalin tried to stop the famine, he sent party members to oversee the policy in the countryside. It was the peasants who revolted and failed to produce food. They wanted to hold on to food and sell it for personal profit, they wanted ownership of the land. They broke the law and the nation starved.

Brother Oz

And the reason they did so was because the Communists took all their food to give to the cities and they starved. Now, they ought to have been nice and worked to feed their fellow man, but of course they weren't, because people aren't that nice. Did they deserve to have the Communists come down to kill people because of that?
Later on, Stalin did deliberately hunt the "Kulaks" and send them to concentration camps, but that's not the same as the Famine.
Certainly, I don't think it can be argued it was Russia's fault. Russia was always officially just one of the many republics within the USSR.

__________________
... I am surprised at your insolence in writing to me at all. You know, as I know, that I bought this constituency... may God's curse light upon you and may it make your women as open and as free to the excise officers as your wives and daughters have always been to me while I have represented your scoundrel corporation.
I have the honour to be... your obliged humble servant, Anthony Henley
- MPs reply to constituent, mid 1700s

bocanut

Record wheat harvests were recorded in the middle of Stalin's forced starvation of 10 million Ukrainian people.
Even the communists governments in later years ackowledged the genocide.
Have you been caught in a time warp?
Stalin was the second most brutal dictator in the 20th century after Mao.

bocanut

[quote=Administrator;7415]Well I think it's very questionable to call it a genocide. I have not yet seen the primary evidence. It would have to show that Stalin deliberately chose the Ukrainian people by race and not by class, IMO.

In either case, even if it were genocide, there is still no case for reparations. I've argued with Russians before and this came up. First they will say that Stalin was Georgian, not Russian, which is true. Second, they will say that the Stalin was the head of the Soviet Union and that the USSR and the Communists were an evil regime that conquered Russia as well. They will say Russia was just as much a victim as the Ukraine.

Personally, given how bad relations are already with Russia, I'd say that they should not try to go for reparations.[/QUOTE


Hitler was an Austrian,did this let Germany off the hook?
Ukrainians should not let the genocide of their people be swept into the dustbin of history.

joep182

10 million Ukranians ? That's a ridiculous figure. Record harvests, it peaked in 1930, then the following years were below pre Stalin because of sabotage. It's a fact. Quantity of livestock more than halved and grain production went down. The only record this was in danger of setting was a record low.

bocanut

Try reading some non-socialist,non- revisionist history:

The Artificial Famine/Genocide
(Holodomor) in Ukraine
1932-33

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Introduction
A Man-Made Famine raged through Ukraine, the ethnic-Ukrainian region of northern Caucasus (i.e. Kuban), and the lower Volga River region in 1932-33. This resulted in the death of between 7 to 10 million people, mainly Ukrainians. This was instigated by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin and his henchman Lazar Kaganovich. The main goal of this artificial famine was to break the spirit of the Ukrainian farmer/peasant and to force them into collectivization. The famine was also used as an effective tool to break the renaissance of Ukrainian culture that was occuring under approval of the communist government in Ukraine. Moscow perceived this as a threat to a Russo-Centric Soviet rule and therefore acted to crush this cultural renaissance in a most brutal manner. The famine/genocide also had the added "benefit" to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from vast territories.

In 1932, the Soviets increased the grain procurement quota for Ukraine by 44%. They were aware that this extraordinarly high quota would result in a grain shortage, therefore resulting in the inability of the Ukrainian peasant to feed themselves. Soviet law was quite clear in that no grain could be given to feed the peasants until the quota was met. Communist party officials with the aid of military troops, OGPU, NKVD secret police units were used to move against peasants who may be hiding grain from the Soviet government. Even worse, an internal passport system was implemented to restrict movements of Ukrainian peasants so that they could not travel in search of food. Ukrainian grain was collected and stored in grain elevators that were guarded by military units & NKVD secret police units while Ukrainians were starving in the immediate area. The actions of this Moscow instigated action was a deliberate act of genocide against the Ukrainian peasant.

In recent years President Viktor Yushchenko had ordered the release of old KGB records on the Famine. With this information it has become very apparent that this Famine was a deliberate act of Genocide, a method to ethnically cleanse Ukrainians from the territories of Ukraine and parts of Russia. At first only several thousand documents were released. Recently another batch of 25,000 documents is being declassified. As more documents are released this event in Ukrainian history has taken on a very ominous tone.

On November 28th 2006, the Verkhovna Rada (Parliament of Ukraine) had passed a Law defining the Holodomor as a deliberate Act of Genocide.

These series of pages are intended to educate the general populace about this little known event in Ukrainian history. InfoUkes hopes to add to this series of pages over time.

The InfoUkes Inc. Staff
Updated November 28th 2006


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Table of Contents
Black Famine in Ukraine 1932-33: A Struggle for Existence
Andrew Gregorovich, Forum: A Ukrainian Review
No. 24, 1974
Famine Film: "Harvest of Despair"
Leonard Klady, Forum: A Ukrainian Review
No. 61, Spring 1985
The Last Stand of the Ukrainian Famine-Genocide Deniers
Dr. Roman Serbyn

Denied, Defiled, Or Ignored
The Ukrainian Famine Of 1932-33
Fifty Years Later
Orysia Tracz

Famine-Genocide Deniers (Revisionists)
Bibliography on the Ukrainian Famine/Genocide (Holodomor)
The Ukrainian Weekly on the Great Famine of 1932-33 in Ukraine
Other Ukrainian Famine-Genocide (Holodomor) Links

joep182

i think you should read from more reputable sources.

Stalin a political biography by Isaac Deuscher

"The big farmers on the other hand, demanded high prices for food, prices intolerabely burdonesome to the townspeople ; and they also pressed for further concessions to capitalist farming"


" They slaughtered their cattle, smashed implements and burned crops....18 million horses had been slaughtered. So were 30 million large cattle, about 45% of the total, and nearly 100 million, or two thirds of sheep and goats. Vast tracts of land were left untilled."

theres how it actually started unlike your quote which just throws claims around, not facts.


Fraud, Famine, and Fascism - The Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard

go here to read douglas tottle and find out how Nazi propaganda created the myth of a Ukranian genocide. I notice one of your sources is written by James Mace one of the men who used Nazi propaganda to compile his findings

A book from Hitler

Your whole argument depends on nazi propaganda and we all know how reliable that is.

bocanut

I thought that being a Maytag Repairman was the lonliest job in the world but being a Stalin apologist in 2007 has to be the new standard.

joep182

Just telling it how it is, Most European Historians will tell you the same.