If the Soviets had succesfully invaded Afghanistan... - Political Forum

Deja Entendu · 03-05-2007, 01:43 PM

Would it have been for the best? Don't get me wrong, I think communism is a disastrous belief, doomed to failure, and certain to create poverty and only enforceable through opression. However, I do not think it is as destructive as Islamism - communist govt.s and people in communist systems tend to be prepared to reform, and many of them can be quite easily won over with material improvements. Also, for all its faults, communism can be a flexible ideology, you can get moderates who believe in implementing the values of communism via the market (ie many eastern European communist parties,, the chinese), and although I still think clinging onto communist ideals does more harm then good, there is still room for improvement within communist or ex-communist states. However, Islamism is a different thing entirely. The fanaticism, the willingness to die, the complete, inflexible, backwards looking nature of it - I think this is something you can't really counter with reason, or diplomacy, or carrot and stick etc. Therefore I think one of the biggest mistakes the USA ever made was supporting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and they are still paying the consequences of it today. I understand that at the time the Sviet was rightfully the enemy, but the logic cannot be that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - however abd the Soviets were, I think they would have done us all a favour if they could have eradicated from Afghanistan those who today call themselves the Taliban. And even if they'd failed to effectively eradicate Islamism from Afghanistan, I imagine the Islamists in Afghanistan today would be much like those in Chechnya, and fighting not the USA, but Russia. but either way, whatever state the other, former Soviet "-Stans" are in (Turkmenistan springs to mind), surely none of them have suffered quite as they would have under the Taliban.

joep182 · 12-04-2007, 08:20 PM

The Soviet Union never invaded Afhanistan at any point. They were there to maintain order at the request of the Afghan government. It was no invasion

Brother Oz · 12-05-2007, 09:54 AM

It's slightly more complicated. Originally they were brought in by the President to help fight rebels (who later became the Mujahadeen). His Prime Minister was a real bastard. The Soviets asked him to stop his brutal killings and so on, but he refused. The Soviets therefore plotted with the President to get rid of the PM, but he got word of it, and killed the President when he returned from the USSR. Then the Soviet troops tried to take him down, and more Soviet troops invaded.

But anyway, back to the actual point. I agree that the US in the long run was better off not supporting the Islamists. I'm not sure whether that was at all clear at the time.

0-Danny-0 · 12-08-2007, 10:05 AM

The joy of hindsight, I dont think the USA at the time of the invasion would have really believed that the Mujahadeen would turn into a threat. But looking back I think the US currently regret the fact that they support the rebels within afghanistan.

Brother Oz · 12-08-2007, 10:33 AM

Exactly, it's easy to say that in hindsight it was a bad idea, I don't think at the time America had any idea that a few fundamentalist rebels would ever grow into such opposition.

Taximark · 01-04-2008, 10:26 PM

A question that is almost impossible to answer.

At the time the US had to help the mujahideen to defeat the Soviets and if the Soviets would have taken Afghanistan (highly unlikely even without the US help) then they probably would have been at war with Pakistan - Pakistan in 1979 was very nervous and conscious of the U.S.S.R and they hated Communism.

hendx287 · 01-04-2008, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deja Entendu

Would it have been for the best? Don't get me wrong, I think communism is a disastrous belief, doomed to failure, and certain to create poverty and only enforceable through opression. However, I do not think it is as destructive as Islamism - communist govt.s and people in communist systems tend to be prepared to reform, and many of them can be quite easily won over with material improvements. Also, for all its faults, communism can be a flexible ideology, you can get moderates who believe in implementing the values of communism via the market (ie many eastern European communist parties,, the chinese), and although I still think clinging onto communist ideals does more harm then good, there is still room for improvement within communist or ex-communist states. However, Islamism is a different thing entirely. The fanaticism, the willingness to die, the complete, inflexible, backwards looking nature of it - I think this is something you can't really counter with reason, or diplomacy, or carrot and stick etc. Therefore I think one of the biggest mistakes the USA ever made was supporting the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, and they are still paying the consequences of it today. I understand that at the time the Sviet was rightfully the enemy, but the logic cannot be that "my enemy's enemy is my friend" - however abd the Soviets were, I think they would have done us all a favour if they could have eradicated from Afghanistan those who today call themselves the Taliban. And even if they'd failed to effectively eradicate Islamism from Afghanistan, I imagine the Islamists in Afghanistan today would be much like those in Chechnya, and fighting not the USA, but Russia. but either way, whatever state the other, former Soviet "-Stans" are in (Turkmenistan springs to mind), surely none of them have suffered quite as they would have under the Taliban.

yeah but they would have lost it again when the soviet union fell apart. because we all know it would eventually

Calvin-X · 01-05-2008, 09:04 AM

The lost of a war was a huge pycological, social, economic and political blow to the Soviet Union. It one wants to examine the possiblity of a succesfull invasion one has to consider the possiblity that the Soviet Union would either have survived or collasped very differantly.

And considering that one possible senerio of the end of the cold war was World War III possibly with a full nuclear exchange which could have led to the end of the world I would have to argue that the US was correct to aid the afgan guerillas.

Other points.

I am not aware that the transistion from Soviet retreat to Taliban control was an one step process. Thus this idea that the US is responsible for the rise of the Taliban has not been supported.

Also where does this idea of moderate and reform-minded communist come from? The Soviet Union was a totalitarian state with quite a history of oppression and mass murder.

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