Albinonewt

I wouldn't put too much faith in patent enforcement keeping the poor down and elevating the rich. It is next to impossible to enforce patents now on everything from drugs to table fans on an international basis. If the patent holder of a specific therapy will not make it available the market will respond to it.

Which wouldn't exactly be the ideal situation, but it does function as a means of mitigating the potential damage of that situation.

Shiva_TD

IQ's are based upon percentiles so no matter whether the overall intelligence goes up (or down) one-half of the people will have less than a 100 IQ and one-half will be above 100. A 100 IQ represents the 50th percentile.

Shiva_TD

Just because you or I cannot currently see a benefit to human cloning or the fact that it isn't feasible right now does not mean it won't be feasible or that there wouldn't be a benefit. My point is that there really shouldn't be a moral issue related to it.

Viv

What is ethicially and morally unacceptable about cloning, in your view Slart?

melek

As yet, we do not understand the full sequence of events that turns a stem cell into its final form.

If we wish to cause a cell to develop along a selected pattern, we have to know what the pattern is--which genes switch on, or off and when this happens.

The only things that have these patterns are the natural stem cells. To learn the patterns that this concept depends on, we have to study "real" stem cells further. For this reason, this discovery may mean no further use of human stem cells BUT not yet.

As to the desire for greater physical strength or other attributes, these things may be possible later, but using them may have produce other problems,

A recent development was described as the production of a "mighty mouse" type of mice. Sounds impressive as this mouse can work harder, faster, stronger and longer than normal AND never get fat, regardless of diet.

It is, unfortunately, hyper-active. In humans, this genetic effect might be a possible application of genetic engineering, but what form would the over-activity take? Do you consider a super fit psychopath desirable?

We are not mice. Our lifespan is so long that experimentation [Even if you consider it moral] is hardly practical in the short term.

If you favor such experimentation, may I ask what you propose to do with the failures?

Melek

Slartibartfas

The success rate is for sure an important factor. A liveable human is more an accident in terms of likeability than a logical consequence. It has also shown that even those successful cloned beings have a significantly shorter life span for reasons that seem to remain uncleared yet.

While many may consider this not so much of a problem with animals we slaughter for food anyway, it becomes a tad problematic with humans.


And then of course, it would help if you show me what for cloning of humans should be done. It very much depends also on the purpose as well. Cloning as a term has become a very vague term for many things in the public discussion, so clarifying it and the purpose of certain actions where it is carried out would help.

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melek

"Success rate" might be very difficult to assess because of the time scale. The cloning of Dolly the sheep was hailed as a great success, but Dolly was killed before her lifespan was complete because of progressive arthritis. This might have been a side effect of the cloning or it might have been unrelated; only further tests could show this.

Given the lifespan of sheep, this might take a decade to give proof positive. Given the human life span, many decades of tests would be needed for complete confidence.

As an illustration of this danger: the drug "di-ethyl stilbestrol" was used in the USA in the late '50s and '60s to stabilize pregnancies and avoid abortion. It apparently worked--and actually did work for a male fetus. For a female fetus it worked in that the pregnancy was stabilized and a gave a healthy infant. The only catch was that many of these females developed genital cancer at puberty--some 12 years later.

Who recommends this gamble?

Remember: if you call the tune the piper has to be paid. Is it just to sanction this untested research and make some one else pay the piper?

Melek

Slartibartfas

I am no expert. But have those problems not come up at the other cloning experiments of higher animals as well?

Anyway, even if its not a systematical but an accidential error, it supports my point even the more. The "Success rate" is rather low; at best.

I think I dont quite understand what point you are trying to make.

We are discussing here the testing of high risk technology on human life. It would help to find out what for to we should risk that, in order to discuss this any further.

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Viv

I did not intend to suggest support for cloning, only to elicit Slarti's views.
I don't believe Wilmut has any plan to clone human subjects.
His book states the science will be developed for other purposes, more related to genetic engineering, transgenics, curing ilness and so on. It also states the process carries too much risk, as Slart said.
The Roslin Institute in Scotland created other clones by various methods, Dolly was one of several. 4 other sheep were cloned at the same time as Dolly. None grew into exact replicas of the host, all varied in physical size and temperament proving that genes do not generate exact replication.

Viv

This happens by natural selection already.