I propose that we create and individual company that controls the health care of the world. that way everyone would have equal health coverage. it would be federally funded by the nation that the hospital/clinic was in. service would be free...because...lets face no one means to get sick or injured...so its not fair to have to have people pay for it.

If it is federally funded, then it will not be free. Also, while people might not intend to get sick, many do not take proper preventative measures to not get sick. Do you think it is fair to force people to pay for health care service for someone that has misused their body with cigarettes, alcohol, a poor diet, and no exercise? Even when they have been practically screamed at that these things are bad for them?

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Yes. They often pay higher taxes--cigarette, alcohol tax, etc. They aren't getting a "free ride" any more than the sports enthusiast gets a "free ride" when he or she breaks a leg engaging in dangerous sports.

People can be stupid, about their health, about their finances, about their relationship--stupidity doesn't absolve of us treating them humanely.

The alternative to "forcing people" to pay for their healthcare is to stand piously by while those in need suffer torturous pain and eventually die a horrible death.

Talk about cruel and unusual.

I forgot to point out that it would depend on the type of illness if it were free but in most cases it would be. and yes technically federally funded would mean that its not free but would you rather pay ten or twenty more bucks in taxes than thousands for a surgury?

So...... the other option of having them pay for it with insurance is out of the question? Its like the only option is government paid health care. Can we not come up with a system that allows everyone to afford their own health care?

In the case of higher cigarette taxes, those are paid willingly, not taken from their paycheck before they ever get to see it. There is a big difference between handing money over and having it taken from you.

Also, I was using hyperbole to respond to this sentence in particular.

With that sort of logic we could also say.....
"lets face it, some people don't mean to get pregnant... so its not fair to have people pay for it." ( Birth control, abortion, delivery)

What if someone said, "I never asked to be born, its not fair that I should have to work and support myself, and have to pay for myself."

Can we not work together and think of a reasonable and fair solution to lowering the cost of health care and health insurance? ..... with out involving our increasingly inept government. It's like we're giving up on ourselves.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Private "free markets" have proven they are unreliable to provide cost-effective and affordable healthcare. That leaves only a single-payer system.

But if you really want to make healthcare affordable to everyone, then we're going to have to get into a discussion about valuing labor to the tune of a livable wage and what to do about those who physically or psychologically (such as schizophrenics) who are unable to work.

We have two options:

A) Allow people the means to earn their own way and remain independent of the government: such as affordable housing, transportation, clothing, food, healthcare and education.

B) Pay people squat and have government take up the slack.

Those are the only two moral and ethical choices we have for a sustainable and healthy society.

One or the other.

I agree, those are the two options, but IMO the government picking up slack should not be an option. I think it is our best interest (the country's) to start looking at all of these topics, not just health care, as a whole. We need reform on so many different levels. Illegal immigration for one has had a pretty detrimental effect on our health care system. The tax codes need to be restructured so that people, especially lower class people, can keep more of their paycheck. Education needs to be more culturally valued so that people can go out and earn a wage that will allow them to pay for insurance. I keep getting the feeling that our politicians use these topics as hollow concerns to entice people to vote for them and treat them like they are exclusive from each other. We need to start looking at how all of our policies affect each other and come up with solutions that can address all of them.

I know many of my posts seem like I might have a "fuck them" attitude, and up to a certain point they do, but I realize the there are people out there that genuinely need help. I'm more than willing to help them out, but we're going to have to clean house if we are really going to start helping people that need it. And not just help them get by either, if we work together and start holding ourselves, and each other, accountable then we can start helping these people not only get by, but begin to succeed.

__________________
Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Also, I believe that our free market system is not working because we allow it to be abused way too much. I believe that a free market health care system has way more potential to fulfill our needs than a government controlled system.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

I'm with you Fry on this.

When I first start debating this topic, my choice was to value labor, pay a living wage, and give people the tools necessary to be truly independent and free of government. Most aid to our citizens is demoralizing and comes with bureaucratic nonsense that hinders people from advancing. This I know from personal, first-hand experience. No man or woman who works 40+ hours a week should ever have to turn to government for aid just to make ends meet--no one, ever.

However, you'll find there is FAR greater resistence to paying people a wage that will allow them to remain independent, or conversely creating affordable housing so no matter how low your wage is, you can afford rent, or bringing costs down on food, healthcare, transportation and education so they are in the reach of everyone.

The false accusations of "communism" or "socialism" ring loudly in these discussions. They also tend to bring in the false argument of "merit" and how we can't reward a person working at Walmart the same way we reward a doctor or a lawyer, etc.

Look at the hue and cry over raising the minimum wage. If we can't even make sure wages keep pace with inflation, then we certainly aren't a society that values it's citizens.

The corporatacracy that we've started to become will never allow the working poor to share in the profits that they, by and large, have created for the corporations at an equitable rate.

Yet even though we know that unregulated business exploits labor, rather than respect labor, to have government interfere with regulations is tantamount to being a traitor in the eyes of the ruling class (or their lackeys.)

It used to be even a garageman was respected by our society--for having a job, bringing in just enough to afford a modest home, and care for his family. Today, respect is only offered to those who are seen as financially successful--not hard working.

Hard work without a big paycheck is seen as "disposable" labor--which translates to "disposable" people.

So, since I've been around this mullberry bush a time or two and know the opposition to valuing every citizens intrinsic worth and hard work with a living wage, I truly believe that government dependence--especially as it relates to healthcare--is about all that we have left.

It's not my first option, I'd much rather hard working folks who've earned their indpendence were actually able to BE independent, but knowing what I do about how the private sector will never willingly pay people what's necessary, or create affordable necessities, I find I must support a single-payer healthcare system and worst of all, government regulation.

It's a matter of what is possible and what isn't.

I don't believe it's abused too much. For one, I've never heard of a health insurance company that remotely allows their clients to abuse them. For the most part, their practice is to deny all but those costs that they legally couldn't deny--which is most.

The free market healthcare system has been proven to make huge profits, pay as little out as they possibly can, and offer unaffordable, outrageously high deductions to increase their chances of having never to pay out.

My problem with third-party insurance is that it just adds a middleman to the mix, one standing there collecting money that would be of better use to the doctors and healthcare professional serving the patient.

The way I see it, I can pay my $50.00 a week (or more) directly to a system where I'll never see a hospital bill again--or I can pay it to an insurance company and likely never see any return on that investment due to the large deductables I'm forced to pay before the insurance ever kicks in.

A good friend of mine was born with a genetic anomoly that created a need for a kidney transplant. She lost her home, her retirement, her job, her savings and is now forced to live in poverty or die. (If she earns a single dollar over the amount she and her husband are allowed to make, they revoke her health coverage and she loses the ability to pay for the life-sustaining drugs she's on to make sure her body doesn't reject the new kidney.)

Now, that is NOT the American Way. That is not how our country should be treating its citizens. That's not the way to foster responisibility and independence in our citizenry.

That's what the free market did to my friend. I know her story is not unique.