a) and b) can be easily achieved with conventional means. There are also mineral waters with a quite high pH. I personally think they taste ugly but thats of no importance here.

b) a low ORP probably is always a good thing. If I want to lower the ORP of water I would have trust for example adding L-ascorbinic acid more than any controversial method where people have no clue how and why it should work. But I guess already carbonizing and pushing the oxygen out of the water does a great job in this regard.

c) those Microclusters are subject of constant change and rearangement arent they? I mean wait a second and the water looks totally different again...



While I remain sceptical I am of course open for any further serious academic research on it. If there should be reproducable effects it should be just a matter of time until the first theories try to explain it.

Here is an interesting research for example. It came to the conclusion that none of the observed biometers showed a significant difference except for body growth. The body growth is explained suspected to be caused by higher Calcium concentrations in the Alkaline ionized water they used.

Influences of alkaline ionized water on milk yield...[J Toxicol Sci. 1998] - PubMed Result

These following study supported the suggestion that it is due to higher Calcium levels
Influences of alkaline ionized water on milk elect...[J Toxicol Sci. 2000] - PubMed Result

__________________
"Every country gets the cuisine it deserves"

I don't see how adding CO2 and removing the oxygen would make the water an anti-oxidant - ie lower its ORP. Ozone is used to make water that is super-oxidized, with a high ORP - as in swimming pools. In this case the oxygen acts as an oxidant and strips the water of active hydrogen.

But removing oxygen does not lower the ORP so far as I am aware. There is not much dissolved oxygen in water in any case, and removing it will have zero effect as regards the ORP. For water to have a low ORP it is essential that you have OH- ions, and then you need to ionize the water.

Water ionization isn't controversial, it is being used in hospitals, clinics and homes throughout Japan and Korea, water ionizers are registered as medical instruments. It's just that in the west few people know about it, but this is changing.

Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) is an anti-oxidant, whether you take it as a tablet or dissolved in water it acts the same - but if you dissolve it in water this does not mean that you've made the water into an anti-oxidant. The anti-oxidant ability would be from the vitamin C, not from the water.

To take effective anti-oxidant supplements you need to take a combination of substances - Vit C by itself is not effective as it works with other substances. You need Vit E, a good B-Complex, beta-carotene, the minerals Zinc and Selenium for example. What happens is that each substance relies on the existence of the other to supply it something (this something in essence would be energy or electrons). One thing borrows electrons from another, which borrows from another, which from another - this chain is very specific, if there is something missing, then it breaks and your cells lose out - ie they will be oxidized and die.


Yes, they would - like a dance of the water molecules, the structure keeps changing. But NMR readings will show that at any point in time there will be predominantly hexagonal micro-clusters with ionized water, glacier water and flowing spribg water. It's as if somehow the charge, or life-force in the molecules makes the molecules dance differently!

There are theories that explain it - and yes, the effect is easily reproducible, try it yourself.

The theories look at the effect from different angles which can be grouped as:

1. Alkalinity - This examines the fact that the water has (a) a high alkaline mineral content (mainly Calcium, but also other minerals), (b) higher amounts of Oxygen in the stable bias OH- form that the cells can use, and (c) the alkalinity removes the acidity - acidity is considered to be public enemy number one, and alkalin water is the best way to to counter act the problems of acidity. The two studies that you mentioned, and others, focus on this aspect. Sang Whang, Dr Robert Young, etc, focus on the alkalinity as the explanation for the 'magical' effects.

2. Micro-clusters and ORP - Micr-clustering makes the water super hydrating, so it can reach parts of the body that other water can not, and low ORP makes it anti-oxidant. Dr Hyashi, Dr Baroody, Professor Sirahata and others believe that this is the key that explains the magical health benefits.


I believe that it is a mixture of both, and there are other factors that are involved.

__________________
James
www.DetoxifyNow.com Detox, Fasting and Cleansing. Http://Glowing-Health.com Alkaline Ionized Water

Alkaline and acid as far as foods and such is nothing but junk science.

Before believing anything check out quackwatch.org

Replacing O2 through CO2 doesn't make water an antioxidant, but it makes it considerably less of an oxidant. Of course, Ozon is a larger oxidizer but thats not the problem. At least where I live we dont have Ozon in our drinking water, so you do not have to get rid of it as well.

In the field of biotechnology the ORP is an important factor when you cultivate anaerob microorganisms. If you do so in fluid batch cultures you do so in making the containment airtight (to prevent new oxygen of getting in) and a reductive substance to get rid of the O2. Hence the ORP falls to a level where your microorganisms feel comfortable.

Are you trying to tell me thats all nonsense?

There are far stronger oxidizing agents than oxygen, but oxygen is the by far most common one.

Thats what you say. There are people and I think quite serious and integer people who say something different. Thats why I call it controversial.

Also the oxidant ability is not from the water itself but from substances in the water. I lack to see where your paragraph shall lead to.

If your cell loose the ability to reduce oxygen they are dead anyway. Not because it will become oxidized, before that happens it will die simply because it runs out of energy. (with the exception of muscle cells or similar who are able of lactat fermentation I guess)
The dangerous substances for our body are not so much oxygen, as our own body can handle it very well, its stuff like H2O2 etc that makes problems. And that stuff is produced by the body itself by some enzymes it needs. Thats why our cells have own a sytem to get rid of them again.

The point is however, these systems are not really dependant on the water you drink. As long as your nutrition gives you all the substances you need everything is alright.

You claim changing the charge of water in a lasting way? Regarding "life force" you are not really seroius here, are you? "Life force" is no concept of science I am aware of, not in this regard.


I'll trust the scientific community more in this regard. As soon as their is no mentionworthy controversy left about it anymore, I will be happy to accept that alkaline ionized water helps.
I read so inthe links I posted above. The Calcium seems the sole difference in a handful of Japanese experiments that made a difference. Where does this Calcium come from? Is it added to the water?
b and c are the direct consequence from having a higher alkalinity. I dont know the positive effect you describe, but I do not know everything either. What I dont get however, is how the pH level should have any influence on our health. We have our own puffer system in our body and it has quite large capacities. You can indeed with extreme meassures get that puffer system body out of balance, but that would not be unhealthy, no, it would be lethal. So I guess, most people have it in balance.
And btw, your alkaline water is exactly as long alkaline until it reaches your stomache.

If you can link me to a paper published on pubmed about this issue I will be glad to have a look at it.

__________________
"Every country gets the cuisine it deserves"

As I said in the intro to Snake oil criticisms:



This is a good short explanation of the acid/alkaline balance in the body by Sue Pollock.

__________________
James
www.DetoxifyNow.com Detox, Fasting and Cleansing. Http://Glowing-Health.com Alkaline Ionized Water

I was not aware that simply removing dissolved O2 from water will lower the ORP - can you refer me to some research article that shows this? I don't see why this should happen.

The same cultivation process is used in wine making. In brewing wine (essentially you are cultivating anaerobic micro-organisms) you need a slightly acidic pH and the absence of atmospheric oxygen.

This same process happens in the body. In an alkaline, oxygenated state you do not get bugs, pathogenic microbes, etc, that cause most disease symptoms.

Most if not all microbes that cause disease symptoms are anaerobic micro-organisms and their function is to decompose the body on death. Modern medicine conducts a campaign of 'Chemical Warfare' against these harmless organisms, which in itself increases the acidity of the body and leads to more anaerobic organisms appearing (ie being cultivated).

Holistic therapy on the other hand is concerned with changing the environment such that anerobic organisms can not breed. An alkaline pH and a well oxygenated state of the blood and tissue fluids is one of the pillars of holistic therapy.

Read this excerpt from Daniel Reid new book 'The Tao of Detox'.


I'm just saying that there is a difference in ORP that is inherent to the water, and ORP that is induced by dissolving substances into it. Ionized water has two states - Alkaline, Low ORP (-300 or so) and Acid, High ORP (+700 or so) - both these are 'inherent' qualities of the natural water. If you measure the ORP of Spring Mineral water it will be 'alkaline' and Hot Mineral Springs will be 'Acid'.

__________________
James
www.DetoxifyNow.com Detox, Fasting and Cleansing. Http://Glowing-Health.com Alkaline Ionized Water

Water is the most important nutrient for your body next to oxygen. There are cases of Taoists living in good health for months on spring water and air alone.


Yes, the 'charge' (ie ORP and NMR) is lasting - you can buy bottled 'Micro-clustered Alkaline Water', which retains many of its properties for weeks.

'Science' may not have a concept of LIFE, but it does not mean that there is no such thing as LIFE or life force.


I believe that there is consensus in the scientific community on the vital importance of clean water to general health. There is also a growing consensus that alkaline ionized water is beneficial - but if you wait for the entire scientific community you'll lose out.


Some new ionizers have a facility whereby you can add calcium, and some filters have a layer of coral calcium that the water passes through.

But the early ionizers didn't do this, and these were used in those studies. In those cases, what happens is that calcium in the tap water is in effect 'concentrated' in the alkaline water, and the ionization process changes it into ionized or colloidal or bio-active form - so it is better assimilated then the tap water without ionization.


pH is just an indicator, by itself it does not mean anything, but with ionized water it tells you that other factors are present. You can add bi-carbonates to water to make it alkaline in pH, but this will not benefit your health in any way.

The benefits from Alkaline Ionized Water come from what is contained in it, not the pH:

• a) High, bio-active minerals
• b) High Oxygen in the bias OH- form
• c) Micro-custers
• d) Low ORP

By these means it helps to Alkalize, Mineralize, Hydrate and Detoxify the body.

I've spoken about 'Stomach' acidity. A few points:

• 1. The stomach only produces acids when it is digesting food, in the absence of food there is no (or very little) acid.
• 2. Researchers believe that water may have a mechanism for transporting alkaline minerals to the body - it is suggested that water forms clusters around the calcium ion, thus sheltering it on its journey.
• 3. Research shows that alkaline water benefits the bones and teeth - so it must have somehow got past the stomach acids.

__________________
James
www.DetoxifyNow.com Detox, Fasting and Cleansing. Http://Glowing-Health.com Alkaline Ionized Water

Thats a well established doctrine of chemistry. Get a scholar chemistry book of your choice with the needed depth on the subject and you can read more.

Its not even an established doctrine, its also used massively on a routine basis in many laboratories and factories of this world.

Oxygen is an oxidation agent. And its toxic enough that it probably killed about 90% of the worlds life a long time ago, when it appeared the first time in larger doses. Even today there exist many bacteries which are unable to handle oxygen and die already when getting into contact of rather low dosis of it.

As counter tool against oxygen there exist enzymes like for example cytochromes who transform oxygen together with hydrogen into water. Thats the key reaction of the electrone chain the heart of the energy production of oxygen breathing cells. (there exist bacterieas that are able to breath Sulfor or Nitrogen as well, but they are already less oxidative and hence less efficient). All in all a very interseting issue. Oxygen is bad for us, but without it its even worse, as we have to die.



Indeed. Also brewing beer needs a similar environment. The organism is however not anaerobic but facultative anaerob, that means it can cope with both, living with oxygen and living without it. Only if there is a lack of alchohol it will produce ethanol, ie alcohol. As this is the end product of anaerobe fermentation.
The pH niveau depends on the microorganism. Its often used to keep contaminating microorganisms out. Thats the case when brewing beer. The used yeast likes an acidic environment, many other microorganisms dont do so and therefore wont spoil you the beer. But there is also another reason why beer is a rather acidic drink, before you ferment it, you transform it with the help of enzymes (that come from the malt), those enzymes have an optimum in a slightly acid environment... ok... back to the topic again

I strongly contest this. You pH level in the body does not change significantly anytime. You won't change it by the stuff you drink. And thats good so, as a derailing of your body own puffer system would have severe consquences with death being likely.

Regarding the pH niveau, well it works in both directions, the very low pH of the stomach of 1 has several reasons but one is to kill most of the microorganisms that your food contains plentyful.

They are at least faclutative anaerobe thats right. But thats pretty much logical as otherwise they had no chance to survive in our body. No matter if pathogenic or not.

Modern medicine in its warfare against pathologic bacterias basis on substances that have been long established in the world of microorganisms before. The secondary metabolits named antibiotica should be well known.
Its the most effective weapon we have nowadays and it helped degrading many extremely dangerous and lethal deseases to minor illnesses.

Penicillin and all its derivates as well as other antibiotica have no significant influence of the pH in our body. There is no connection between acidity and anaerob growing as well.

I can tell you the way how eg Penicillin works. It harms the bacterias cell wall synthesis through preventing interconnection of the pepticoglycan molecules, furthermore it activates autolysating enzymes of the bacterias. And last but not least it has some harming effects on the RNA which creates problems in the enzyme synthesis. There are many levels on which this works, acidity being none of them as far as I know.

You don't have an alkaline pH in your body, the day you have it, you are dead. The oxygen in your blood is bound on häm which is the central molecule of the blood cells. The oxygen is bound´there in a metallo-complex. I doubt this has an effect on the ORP of your blood.

Are there any scientific paper that prove that the ORP change is exclusively due to another lets say charge in the water, which persists for a longer time?

__________________
"Every country gets the cuisine it deserves"

Not unless they were fat to begin with...... If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.....

So basically, it's not the alkalinity, it's the minerals.

1) The stomach is almost always digesting food, so this is a moot point. Also, I think it is wrong. Please show proof of this in a scientific (not quack) format.
2) Water is a mechanism to deliver all nutrients to the body.
3) Thanks to minerals. Basically, you are touting minerals, not alkalinity.

__________________
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
— Robert Heinlein, Time Enough for Love

It doesn't matter, but I don't think this is true - I suspect that you are mistaken on this. Oxygen is an oxidation agent, I know, but I believe that it does not account for the ORP in water. Dissolved oxygen, as I understand it has nothing to do with ORP (ie the millivoltage).

Consider this:
1. Take a litre or so of water and measure its ORP with an ORP meter.
2. Heat the water - this will remove all dissolved oxygen - let it cool and measure the millivoltage.

Will there be a difference?

3. Shake the cooled water in a bottle - so as to get oxygen again dissolved in it - and again measure the ORP.

Will there be a difference?

As I said before, you can raise the ORP of water by passing Ozone through it - this is because ozone is a highly reactive substance, and this is used as an alternative to chlorination in places like Switzerland to treat drinking water.

__________________
James
www.DetoxifyNow.com Detox, Fasting and Cleansing. Http://Glowing-Health.com Alkaline Ionized Water