dahermit

"... American citizens CAN'T wait for the government to solve the obesity problem, because it is a diet and exercise solution, and that boils down to personal responsibility. The fact that the percentage of obese Americans has increased from 15% to 34% and shows no sign of stopping according to the Obesity Society, proves to me that Americans are waiting for a solution that DOESN'T involve the personal responsibility of diet and exercise. "

There are more Americans trying to solve their obesity problem than ever before. They go to Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, etc. They join gyms, jog, exercise all in order to lose weight. But the rate of obesity continues to rise. Not only is the rate of obesity increasing, but I have read where only about 2% of the people( who are over 20% of their ideal body weight), who lose weight can keep it off form more than 2 year(including the several people I know personally who have had bariatric surgery to lose weight, most gain it back after 2-3 years.). Therefore, it would seem that a person who is 20% or more overweight is less as likely to keep the weight off as a heroin addict is likely to quit using heroin. The increasing rate of obesity is less likely that people are waiting for a government to provide a solution than it is that their attempts to control their weight is failing.

I have never heard an overweight person state that they are waiting for the government to fix their problem...are you confusing government with medical science? Could it be that your personal right-wing philosophy is coloring your perception of science?

CaelonLafferty

Who would ever say such a thing, even if it were true? My THEORY (a conjecture, a speculation, etc.) is that because of the fact that we as a mass of people have come to rely on the ruling political body to solve most of our other problems, we depend on the government to solve this one too.

Did you read that long post I bothered to put up? Or any of the links I took the time to find for you? This statement here still proves that obesity is a personal responsibility, as you yourself claim that they are failing to control it, while my evidence shows that the solution is diet and exercise.

dahermit

"Who would ever say such a thing, even if it were true? My THEORY (a conjecture, a speculation, etc.) is that because of the fact that we as a mass of people have come to rely on the ruling political body to solve most of our other problems, we depend on the government to solve this one too."

Not only do you offer no proof that people are waiting for the government to provide a solution to their weight problems, nor have you provided proof the people are relying on the government to solve their other problems. Like most people without a formal education in statistics you are trying to equate correlation with causation. Just because there are a lot of government programs does not necessarily mean that (most, some, or all)people have come to rely on them. You can only prove that government programs exist.

"Did you read that long post I bothered to put up? Or any of the links I took the time to find for you? This statement here still proves that obesity is a personal responsibility, as you yourself claim that they are failing to control it, while my evidence shows that the solution is diet and exercise." Now it is no longer your theory but has now been proven? Which is it? Theory or Fact?

That is why I asked for your age. There were markers in your post that suggested a youthful mind. (A marker associated with youth: A statement that he/she is here to learn, but all the posts are statements not questions.)
No matter how intelligent a 23 year old is or thinks he is, he cannot have the mass of knowledge acquired by years of formal education or a lifetime of observations.

I suggest classes in logic and statistics, and about 30 years of experience applying those disciplines. But you will ignore this advice just as I would have ignored at age of 23...you are much like I was at your age. All problems were simple and I had all the obvious answers.

Ummwhat

Just a quick honest question for you there dahermit. Are you overweight and attempting to shift the blame to a condition that you can not solve by eating less and going for a run once in a while?

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

dahermit

That must be it; I am waiting for the government to legislate me slim....how old are you?

Ummwhat

My age is on my profile. I was not attempting to insult you. It was an honest question.

Now, if you do not mind my asking. How old are you? Let me take a shot. Early to mid sixties?

Age has little to do with this debate. Now would you like to discuss the issues, or do you want to keep insulting people?.

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

dahermit

How is asking your age an insult?

Ummwhat

It is an attempt at an insult by implying that because someone is younger than you, that they can not know as much as you. Now do you want to talk about the issue at hand? Yes or no.

If you do, then we will. If you do not, then lets end this now. Silence or sub-diversions will be taken as a no.

No more talk of credentials, no more questions of age, just the facts and theories as they have been presented in study and education.

__________________
"America is not at war. The U.S. military is at war. America is at the
mall."

CaelonLafferty

The hypothesis is that people want the government to solve their weight problem. The premise that people are relying on their government refers to the masses, not you specifically. Of course, not everyone should be required to grow their own food and get a medical degree to heal their illnesses, but government hospitals, power, jobs, and food reduce competition and creates a virtual monopoly.

Why are these agencies that waste billions of dollars of taxpayer money still in place if the people don't want them? Maybe you don't, and I most certainly don't want them, but I refuse to believe that it is a group of politicians that consistently misrepresent their constituents to keep these agencies flourishing.

ONCE AGAIN, my theory is not that obesity is a personal responsibility. My theory is that this personal responsibility is being given up to the government. Excellent job in dodging the point of that quote of mine and attacking the theory/fact aspect of it, though.

I am learning as we debate right now. Just because I don't stop debating and say, "Oh, you are absolutely right, you've changed my worldview. I can't believe I've been wrong all these years", does not mean that I am not paying attention and carefully reading your posts.

Funny that you would suggest classes in logic when you continue to bring up the age issue - a perfect example of chronological snobbery combined with ad hominem, designed to deflect attention from the argument to the fact that since I am younger and you are older, I must not be formally educated or have any idea what I'm talking about, and you have the experience necessary to make a qualified argument. Coincidentally, despite the fact that I have poured myself into debating the original argument (barring this post), your last post had exactly 3 sentences that adressed the actual debate, and 7 that attacked either my age or my alleged lack of formal education.

I'll concede that I do need to take classes in statistics. I've been meaning to study up on probability and statistics anyway, but this gives me a reason too, so thank you for that.

Frankly, the assumption that I would ignore the advice of an older more educated person offends me. I'm not some drunken frat boy, I'm a kid out of college who wants to try out what he's learned, and then learn from the mistakes he will make, as well as the advice given to him by people that have been around longer.

I'll give you the last word, then I'm going to have to end this debate, I don't want this to devolve into something ugly between us where we feel we couldn't possibly debate in the future. If I don't respond later, I truly have enjoyed this, dahermit, and please don't think that I did not learn anything from you. In fact, if you would be open to it, I noticed that one of your interests is string theory, and I have been trying to find someone knowledgeable enough to explain it to me in a less "textbook"-type of writing. Maybe we could open a thread for that somewhere?

dahermit

Having re-read my later posts, I did stray quite far afield of the central issue. Just take it as the ranting of retired school teacher from a failed public school system where the favorite past time of the students was setting fire to an English teacher's car (twice), and shitting next to the toilet on the floor (they were auto-flushers) and smearing shit on the seats and mirrors. So you can see why I am less than patient when it comes to young people.
In any case, me culpa.