The spread of Western Idears and Ideaologies - Political Forum

ETF · 11-20-2007, 03:23 PM

Hello,
I recently started reading this Forum and i see (mainly by americans but that isnt part of the discussion) that many here want to force other countries and cultures their idears of what they see as civilized and "good".
What we see as civilized is only what our culture and surrounding tells us. So who has the right to say that our perspective of civilized is the right one and even if it is how can we know that it would be as succesfull in other countries (Democracies etc.).
I for example find it barbaric that their still is a death penalty in america but i accept their perspective on it and wouldnt go to america and try to abolish the death penalty by force or pressure. Only because i think it would be better.

I dont want to go into specific cases like the spread of democracy in 3rd world countries (which obviously wasnt a success but this doesnt stand to discussion here if you want to discuss this feel free to open a new theme and i will write my answer).

So what do you think? What gives us the right to intervene in other countries policies because we think its barbaric and force them to think and act as we do? What gives us the right to think that our civilization is better than theirs?

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 11-20-2007, 03:40 PM

Well what would you be talking about here specifically? What specifically do you oppose that Americans on this forum are trying to spread to other nations?

Stopping men from covering women in these ridiculous bedsheets with a grill over the front?

Making other countries stop throwing rape victims in jail?

What specific Western arrogance against these perfectly justifiable cultural practices are you referring to?

Viv · 11-20-2007, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETF

Hello,
I recently started reading this Forum and i see (mainly by americans but that isnt part of the discussion) that many here want to force other countries and cultures their idears of what they see as civilized and "good".
What we see as civilized is only what our culture and surrounding tells us. So who has the right to say that our perspective of civilized is the right one and even if it is how can we know that it would be as succesfull in other countries (Democracies etc.).
I for example find it barbaric that their still is a death penalty in america but i accept their perspective on it and wouldnt go to america and try to abolish the death penalty by force or pressure. Only because i think it would be better.

I dont want to go into specific cases like the spread of democracy in 3rd world countries (which obviously wasnt a success but this doesnt stand to discussion here if you want to discuss this feel free to open a new theme and i will write my answer).

So what do you think? What gives us the right to intervene in other countries policies because we think its barbaric and force them to think and act as we do? What gives us the right to think that our civilization is better than theirs?

Where are you coming from? Which culture is your own?

ETF · 11-20-2007, 05:30 PM

@ viv
I grew up in an upper class german society until i finished school now im studying International Relations in England Exeter.

@WEB
Thats exactly what i mean "ridiculous bedsheets" in their culture its seen as something perfectly natural and normal. Actually my parents are friends with a middle eastern couple (cant remember which country specificly) whos wife wears such a bedsheet (ok not covered face but rest yes) out of belief and cultural basis. (i asked her once why she does that)

I didnt wanted to specify to any topic but ok if you want me to i will name some.
- the spread of western state systems to 3rd world countries (only because it works in our culture and especially our level of education doesnt mean it can work in other cultures)

- Your statement about the women going to jail for being raped ( as its a recent topic in here ive also looked it up) is not a position officially put forward by the state but by the judge in charge of the case. It is not stated in the law that a raped women goes into jail. But as a judge doesnt apply the law but interprets it and then applies it, a sexist judge will always find his way. As the decision of the judge is irreversible and supreme the state cant do much against it.

-The ridiculisation of foreign cultures, we should respect their culture and believes and not make fun of things that we find funny or crazy.

Ofcourse their are some points that realy arent human(like the raped women getting stoned etc.)

To round it up i would like to say that aslong as you dont know anything better your cultures way of living is the most civilized. (maybe our western culture is seen as barbaric by aliens? (no i do not believe in aliens watching us, hehe)).
It is difficult for me to name many counterparts of which of our way of life is seen as barbaric by muslim people as for a matter of fact i didnt have the chance to discuss this theme with a muslim that grew up in its society.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 11-20-2007, 06:16 PM

You know, whenever people criticized "moral relativism" I never quite knew what they meant, until today.

Maybe we should leave the Sudanese slavery alone too, right? That's been going on for more than 500 years. It's not morally wrong, it's tradition.

Same thing with female genital mutilation. Not immoral: tradition.

Locke9-05 · 11-20-2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETF

-The ridiculisation of foreign cultures, we should respect their culture and believes and not make fun of things that we find funny or crazy.

Ofcourse their are some points that realy arent human(like the raped women getting stoned etc.)

To round it up i would like to say that aslong as you dont know anything better your cultures way of living is the most civilized. (maybe our western culture is seen as barbaric by aliens? (no i do not believe in aliens watching us, hehe)).
It is difficult for me to name many counterparts of which of our way of life is seen as barbaric by muslim people as for a matter of fact i didnt have the chance to discuss this theme with a muslim that grew up in its society.

WEB brings up a good point. The attire itself may be cultural, but forcing women to wear it on punishment of law is certainly not cultural. When the way a "cultural" or artistic element of a government or society is revered gets to the point where it causes human pain and suffering, or comes at the unnecessary expense of human beings, then it's no longer an issue of culture. I'm not exactly sure how you can imply that it is...

ETF · 11-20-2007, 10:48 PM

I dont imply that as i posted in the 2nd last paragraph their are limits to this toleration of other cultures. What i think is that our western societies have simply gone over this line and are trying to change things that arent inhuman.

Aya · 11-21-2007, 07:46 AM

I agree with ETF.

But ETF, which things "that aren't inhuman" do you mean?

@WEB
What do you think should we do, especially with the oppression of humans in other countries?

I'm not a fan human rights violation, don't get me wrong. I just think there are other options to fight oppression than to fight it through spreading democracy etc.

Slartibartfas · 11-21-2007, 08:41 AM

Well, actually if I have to choose between basic human rights and the "respect" towards other "traditions", I have to say that I dont need to reflect for too long to know my choice.

And in regards to feminism. Thats not an evil western invention that we want to spread by force around the world. Its something activists around the world also in non-western countries support not because we tell them they have to do so, but because of their own convictions. Being from the western cultural sphere is no prerequisite for that.

While the discussion about scarfs for example is hot debated within certain non western circles, (Sometimes even more than it is in a western country like Austria) and one sort of feminists see it as seen of emancipation while the others see it as a sign of suppression, things like the Burka I think are out of discussion.

I have yet to see a feminist who wears the Burka even though not wearing it would having no negative consequences at all, neither direct nor indirect or in a hidden way.

And regarding the basic human rights, they are also widely support far beyond the western sphere, even though a favorite argumentation of suppressive regimes is that their own people like to be victimized and would not want to live with those rights being granted to them.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 11-21-2007, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ETF

I dont imply that as i posted in the 2nd last paragraph their are limits to this toleration of other cultures. What i think is that our western societies have simply gone over this line and are trying to change things that arent inhuman.

Well I think there is a lack of consistency in your argument.

You say "their are limits to this toleration of other cultures" so you too are in favor of changing cultural practices in other lands. So don't try to talk down on Americans or anyone else who want to change the cultural practices in other lands.