Why Islam attacks.... - Political Forum

mycrazytrain · 07-03-2007, 01:39 PM

The thread below is a sad example of how the United States, Europe, and any non Muslim countries have their heads burried in sand. There is no decline of the United States reputation in Islamic countries at all. Muslims have always hated non Muslims, that's correct. It has nothing to do with the United States and everything to do with Muslims. Muslims hate Christians, Jews, Catholics, Hindus', Buddists, and anyone else who does not have the exact same beliefs they do. That is exactly why the teachings they follow in the Quran ask followers to wage war on anyone not practicing Muslim. You see you cannot bargain or practice diplomacy with Muslims, they have been brainwashed since birth to hate anyone that doesn't believe in what they believe. It is the Anti-western World and it makes me sick when Westerners from diplomatic free countries criticize themselves for not being able to stop the killing. Why? Because there is nothing they can do. Islam has been murdering people for thousands of years and the Muslim religion is everything that doesn't represent freedom.

I have a lady that sits next to me at work that sympathizes with Muslims. I aksed her why and she said she felt sorry for them because they were poor and lived in filth. I asked her if she knew how they treated women and she said no. Then I alsked her if she knows why they live in filth and she said no. Then I told her to go do some homework before we discuss it again. The next day at work she apologized to me and agreed with Muslims being a sick group of individuals.

I watch Muslims and work and always will. I watch anyone of middle eastern origin very closely and always will, and I do not hesitate calling the authorities either. I reported a group of 3 middle eastern men in Las Vegas and watched the police escort them away from the buildings they were scoping.

It's time to drop political correctness for these scumbags who spit in the face of freedom of religion and everything else free. I don't let there propoganda effect me anymore, I am beyond that and will watch them. I cannot wait until everyone else does the same.

US international reputation considerably declining

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 07-03-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

The thread below is a sad example of how the United States, Europe, and any non Muslim countries have their heads burried in sand. There is no decline of the United States reputation in Islamic countries at all. Muslims have always hated non Muslims, that's correct. It has nothing to do with the United States and everything to do with Muslims. Muslims hate Christians, Jews, Catholics, Hindus', Buddists, and anyone else who does not have the exact same beliefs they do.

I could make this same argument about Protestants hating Jews, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucianists and Shintoists. The British Empire and the United States (predominanty Protestant nations) have been to war with all the people who practice those religions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

That is exactly why the teachings they follow in the Quran ask followers to wage war on anyone not practicing Muslim.

The Qu'ran tells its followers to practice jihad when the Islammic community is attacked and to exercise restraint when it is not attacked.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

Quote:

[And fight in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression — for, verily, God does not love aggressors.] (Al-Baqarah 2:190)

[Thus, if they let you be, and do not make war on you, and offer you peace, God does not allow you to harm them.] (An-Nisaa' 4:90)

[Hence, if they do not let you be, and do not offer you peace, and do not stay their hands, seize them and slay them whenever you come upon them: for it is against these that We have clearly empowered you [to make war].] (An-Nisaa' 4:91)

"If even a little sparrow has been killed unjustly, it will appear before the Lord of the worlds crying for justice!"(An-Nasa'i, Ad-Darami, and Ahmad)

So, this is about fighting in self-defense, something that most people practice and advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_as_a_warrior

Quote:

* Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah does not love transgressors. (2:190)

* If any one slew a person - except in retaliation for murder and for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people. (5:32)

* You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.[2:191]

* If they refrain, then GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.[2:192]

* You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.[2:193]

* If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.[8:61]

* ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.[4:90]

* O you who believe, if you strike in the cause of GOD, you shall be absolutely sure. Do not say to one who offers you peace, "You are not a believer," seeking the spoils of this world. For GOD possesses infinite spoils. Remember that you used to be like them, and GOD blessed you. Therefore, you shall be absolutely sure (before you strike). GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do. [4:94]

* There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in GOD has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.[2:256]

* Proclaim: "This is the truth from your Lord," then whoever wills let him believe, and whoever wills let him disbelieve. We have prepared for the transgressors a fire that will completely surround them. When they scream for help, they will be given a liquid like concentrated acid that scalds the faces. What a miserable drink! What a miserable destiny! [18:29]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

You see you cannot bargain or practice diplomacy with Muslims, they have been brainwashed since birth to hate anyone that doesn't believe in what they believe. It is the Anti-western World and it makes me sick when Westerners from diplomatic free countries criticize themselves for not being able to stop the killing. Why? Because there is nothing they can do. Islam has been murdering people for thousands of years and the Muslim religion is everything that doesn't represent freedom.

One can make a much easier argument about Christians being hateful and murdering everybody, because unlike Muslims, Christians HAVE actually invaded and killed everybody. The Muslims never killed the Native Americans, Vietnamese, Japanese, nor conquered China and Africa. That was all Christians.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

I have a lady that sits next to me at work that sympathizes with Muslims. I aksed her why and she said she felt sorry for them because they were poor and lived in filth. I asked her if she knew how they treated women and she said no. Then I alsked her if she knows why they live in filth and she said no. Then I told her to go do some homework before we discuss it again. The next day at work she apologized to me and agreed with Muslims being a sick group of individuals.

Well congragulations, my friend. You've struck another proud blow for bigotry, intolerance and discrimination. I'm sure that people said the same things about Jews living in filth in Germany during the 1930's and blacks and "Injuns" living in filth throughout US history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

I watch Muslims and work and always will. I watch anyone of middle eastern origin very closely and always will, and I do not hesitate calling the authorities either. I reported a group of 3 middle eastern men in Las Vegas and watched the police escort them away from the buildings they were scoping.

It's time to drop political correctness for these scumbags who spit in the face of freedom of religion and everything else free. I don't let there propoganda effect me anymore, I am beyond that and will watch them. I cannot wait until everyone else does the same.

Interesting that you cite that thread. Did you know that people in the UK and Canada see Bush as almost a big a threat as Bin Laden? Are the British and Canadians jihadist too?

International poll ranks Bush a threat to world peace - iht,america,World Views of Bush, 1st Ld-Writethru - Americas - International Herald Tribune

Quote:

International poll ranks Bush a threat to world peace
The Associated Press
Published: November 3, 2006

TORONTO: A majority of people in three countries with close ties to the U.S. — Britain, Canada and Mexico — consider President George W. Bush a threat to world peace, ranking the U.S. president right up there with the leaders of two countries he has labeled part of the "axis of evil" — North Korea's Kim Jong Il and Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

"It is striking that these are America's closest allies and the populations are going, 'Whoa, this guy is a danger to the world,'" said Paul Adams, executive director of Ottawa-based EKOS Research which released the poll results Friday.

"These are allies and if the populations of their countries are saying George Bush is a threat to peace, that's a pretty damning statement about Bush's public diplomacy in the world." Al-Qaida terror network leader Osama bin Laden was viewed as the greatest threat to world peace among those polled in Britain, Canada and Mexico. In Israel, respondents viewed Ahmadinejad, who has called for their country to be wiped off the map, as the biggest threat.

In Britain, 91 percent said they considered bin Laden a great or moderate danger to peace, while 78 percent said that about Bush, the poll found. Kim, whose country tested an atomic bomb last month, was considered a danger by 82 percent, Lebanese Hezbollah militia leader Hassan Nasrallah by 78 percent, and Ahmadinejad by 74 percent.

In Canada, bin Laden was seen by 88 percent of the people surveyed as a great or moderate threat, followed in order by Kim (86 percent), Ahmadinejad (77 percent), and Bush and Nasrallah tied at 74 percent. Eighty-three percent of Mexicans ranked Bush as a great or moderate threat, putting him behind only bin Laden at 88 percent.
....

WEB

FRYandBENDER · 07-03-2007, 03:30 PM

Quote:

* If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.[8:61]

* ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.[4:90]

What do you think they would do if we said, Ok guys, we're tired of fighting and we want to make peace? Do you think they would say, well the Koran says (insert above passages) so yeah, Lets talk peace?

Hasn't Israel asked for peace?

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 07-03-2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRYandBENDER

What do you think they would do if we said, Ok guys, we're tired of fighting and we want to make peace? Do you think they would say, well the Koran says (insert above passages) so yeah, Lets talk peace?

Hasn't Israel asked for peace?

Let's look at several of those quotes from the Qu'ran:

Quote:

* You may also fight them to eliminate oppression, and to worship GOD freely. If they refrain, you shall not aggress; aggression is permitted only against the aggressors.[2:193]

* If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.[8:61]

* ... if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.[4:90]

Fry, if you own a house and then someone broke into your house, forced you and your family to leave and go live on the street and said "let's talk peace" without offering to leave your house, is that a gesture of peace? I don't think it is. It's asking you to stop trying to take back what's yours, and to legitimize their act of violence, which is not peaceful.

In any case, Jordan and Egypt have already made peace with Israel, so if I were to try to answer your question the black and white way that you have asked it, then I could say "yes, they have made peace with Israel."

WEB

mycrazytrain · 07-03-2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I could make this same argument about Protestants hating Jews, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Confucianists and Shintoists. The British Empire and the United States (predominanty Protestant nations) have been to war with all the people who practice those religions.

The Qu'ran tells its followers to practice jihad when the Islammic community is attacked and to exercise restraint when it is not attacked.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...EAskTheScholar

So, this is about fighting in self-defense, something that most people practice and advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_as_a_warrior

One can make a much easier argument about Christians being hateful and murdering everybody, because unlike Muslims, Christians HAVE actually invaded and killed everybody. The Muslims never killed the Native Americans, Vietnamese, Japanese, nor conquered China and Africa. That was all Christians.

Well congragulations, my friend. You've struck another proud blow for bigotry, intolerance and discrimination. I'm sure that people said the same things about Jews living in filth in Germany during the 1930's and blacks and "Injuns" living in filth throughout US history.

Interesting that you cite that thread. Did you know that people in the UK and Canada see Bush as almost a big a threat as Bin Laden? Are the British and Canadians jihadist too?

International poll ranks Bush a threat to world peace - iht,america,World Views of Bush, 1st Ld-Writethru - Americas - International Herald Tribune

WEB

Actually you cannot make the same argument about Jews, Hindu's, Protestants. Those religions do not teach murder and extermination of all people outside of their religion and government like Muslims do throughout the world and even in the united states.

The Qu'ran tells its followers to practice jihad when the Islammic community is attacked and to exercise restraint when it is not attacked.

Correct, and do you know what the definition of being attacked is? The Muslim lifestyle is being threatened throughout the world because people want to be free and live in democracies. That's right the spread of democracy and capitalism alone defines an attacj. That is exactly how the war has been justified. I can assume you have probably never been to the middle east correct? You go ahead and give your freedom to try to make peace. Go live like them, I don't care. I will die fighting for my freedom if it comes to that. I'm not going to let the take freedom away from me, are you kidding. They have already taken enough.

Bigotry? Excuse me sir, I'm not the bigot here. I don't practice a religion that treats women as property, murders female infants, doesn't tolerate anything but there own and participates in governments that support it.

I honestly don't care what Britain and Canada think but I do know this. I have visited both Countries recently and the people sure didn't mind taking my money, entertaining me, and make me feel at home. I think you are making assumptions the you have NO CLUE about.

I'm sorry you are one of the individuals completely in the dark. You will eventually understand and accept our way of or theirs, it's really simple as that. I personally don't care what path you take.

FRYandBENDER · 07-03-2007, 07:07 PM

I care what path you take WEB. I don't think that you would last too long under a Islamic form of government...... the way you mouth off and all.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 07-03-2007, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

Actually you cannot make the same argument about Jews, Hindu's, Protestants.

I didn't say that you could make the same argument about Jews, Hindu's, Protestants. I said that one could make the same argument you make about Muslims, for Protestants as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

Those religions do not teach murder and extermination of all people outside of their religion and government like Muslims do throughout the world and even in the united states.

Neither does Islam. Most imams do teach tolerance for other religions and some fanatics do not. It says so in the Koran, and when Muslim nations (i.e. the Ottoman Empire) have held dominion in Christian lands, they did not demand that their Christian subjects convert.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

Correct, and do you know what the definition of being attacked is? The Muslim lifestyle is being threatened throughout the world because people want to be free and live in democracies. That's right the spread of democracy and capitalism alone defines an attacj.

That's YOUR definition of the word attack. You speak for yourself and what YOU think the general Muslim attitude is. You show no evidence to persuade anyone to believe the latter is true, however. At best, anything you do show is going to be something that's a stretch, and would not be repeated by any Islammic expert, but only by far right talking heads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

That is exactly how the war has been justified. I can assume you have probably never been to the middle east correct? You go ahead and give your freedom to try to make peace. Go live like them, I don't care. I will die fighting for my freedom if it comes to that. I'm not going to let the take freedom away from me, are you kidding. They have already taken enough.

I was in Saudi Arabia when I was very young, but that doesn't really count. Have you been to the Middle East? You suggest that I go live in the Middle East, you say that you will die fighting for your freedom. Have you done a tour in the army yet? They could use your help in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

Bigotry? Excuse me sir, I'm not the bigot here. I don't practice a religion that treats women as property, murders female infants, doesn't tolerate anything but there own and participates in governments that support it.

You sound like a conservative to me. How long ago was it that conservatives were trying to prevent women from going to work and keeping racial minorities as second class citizens and outcasts? Islam is behind the West in terms of human rights and secularism, however I find it ironic that conservatives, who have been opposed to such things now play the role of the biggest human rights watchers.

In any case, you do vilify Islam, and I have seen nothing to indicate that you posess the knowledge of the Middle East or Islam to even give you a leg to stand upon to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

I honestly don't care what Britain and Canada think but I do know this. I have visited both Countries recently and the people sure didn't mind taking my money, entertaining me, and make me feel at home. I think you are making assumptions the you have NO CLUE about.

The point is not whether or not you care about what the UK and Canada think. The point is that the fact that they revile US foreign policy as much as Muslims do refutes your claim that US foreign policy is only detestable due to one being a "jihadist."

Quote:

Originally Posted by mycrazytrain

I'm sorry you are one of the individuals completely in the dark. You will eventually understand and accept our way of or theirs, it's really simple as that. I personally don't care what path you take.

Well, I'm sorry that you are an individual who prescribes to bigotry and hate. You are wrong in saying that people must either walk your path or Bin Laden's. Thank God the world is in reality not so black and white. Similarly, I don't care what path you take.

WEB

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 07-03-2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRYandBENDER

I care what path you take WEB.

I will take the path that has a Hooter's at the end of it.

WEB

FRYandBENDER · 07-03-2007, 07:13 PM

Nice!

IvanKaramazov · 07-15-2007, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I didn't say that you could make the same argument about Jews, Hindu's, Protestants. I said that one could make the same argument you make about Muslims, for Protestants as well.

Neither does Islam. Most imams do teach tolerance for other religions and some fanatics do not. It says so in the Koran, and when Muslim nations (i.e. the Ottoman Empire) have held dominion in Christian lands, they did not demand that their Christian subjects convert.

That's YOUR definition of the word attack. You speak for yourself and what YOU think the general Muslim attitude is. You show no evidence to persuade anyone to believe the latter is true, however. At best, anything you do show is going to be something that's a stretch, and would not be repeated by any Islammic expert, but only by far right talking heads.

I was in Saudi Arabia when I was very young, but that doesn't really count. Have you been to the Middle East? You suggest that I go live in the Middle East, you say that you will die fighting for your freedom. Have you done a tour in the army yet? They could use your help in Iraq and Afghanistan.

You sound like a conservative to me. How long ago was it that conservatives were trying to prevent women from going to work and keeping racial minorities as second class citizens and outcasts? Islam is behind the West in terms of human rights and secularism, however I find it ironic that conservatives, who have been opposed to such things now play the role of the biggest human rights watchers.

In any case, you do vilify Islam, and I have seen nothing to indicate that you posess the knowledge of the Middle East or Islam to even give you a leg to stand upon to do that.

The point is not whether or not you care about what the UK and Canada think. The point is that the fact that they revile US foreign policy as much as Muslims do refutes your claim that US foreign policy is only detestable due to one being a "jihadist."

Well, I'm sorry that you are an individual who prescribes to bigotry and hate. You are wrong in saying that people must either walk your path or Bin Laden's. Thank God the world is in reality not so black and white. Similarly, I don't care what path you take.

WEB

For all your attempts at evenhandedness and fairness to Islam, the fact is over 80% of Muslims in Jordan were celebrating in the streets when news of 9/11 broke. But that aside, it is true that most Muslims are not Jihadists and do not favour terrorism. However, a good many are extremists and hate the West, especially America, despite never having seen or met an American.

Muslim extremists are extreme in the devotion to the literal word of the Koran, which leads them to be extreme in the degree to which they believe that modernity and secular culture are incompatible with spiritual and moral health. They are certain that the exports of Western culture are leading their wives and children away from God. Our unbelief, to them, is a sin so grave thatit invites death if it becomes a barrier to the spread of Islam. They do not bear an ordinary feeling of "hatred", having never been to America or met an America. And they have fewer grievances with Western imperialism than is the norm around the globe.

What most drives extremists to hate is a consuming feeling of "humiliation" -- humiliation over the fact that while their civilization has foundered, they have watched a godless, sin-loving people become the masters of everything they touch. Muslims do not merely feel the outrage of the poor who are deprived of the necessities of life, but that of a chosen people subjugated by barbarians.