China and Russia: Free Market But Authoritarian - Political Forum

RicDemian2 · 06-30-2007, 06:32 AM

It is widely contended that economic development creates pressures for democratization that an authoritarian state structure cannot contain. China and Russia represent a return of economically successful authoritarian capitalist, which have been absent since the defeat of Germany and Japan in 1945. The ascendency of the these 2 powers suggests there may be no necessarily link between free markets and open societies.

Brother Oz · 06-30-2007, 08:43 AM

To be honest, neither of them are at the moment, really properly capitalist in the full sense. China still has a lot of control over its own economy.
Russia has in the last few years nationalised a lot of things. I'd say there was a period when it was properly capitalist, in the mid 90s, but of course then living standards were awful and the economy and government were terribly corrupt. Things are much better now. So that indicates that indeed, capitalism does not necessarily entail democracy. Remember the 19th century industrial states, far more capitalist than they were in the 60s, 70s and even today, yet for the most part ruled by oligarchies.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 06-30-2007, 11:47 AM

@ Oz Hmmmm, how does China have control over its economy, Oz? 1/3 of the economy is state run, but that is not the dynamic part, that's the part that's getting phased out everyday. China has also liberalized its banks (but I admittedly don't know how far that has gone.)

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 06-30-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicDemian2

It is widely contended that economic development creates pressures for democratization that an authoritarian state structure cannot contain. China and Russia represent a return of economically successful authoritarian capitalist, which have been absent since the defeat of Germany and Japan in 1945. The ascendency of the these 2 powers suggests there may be no necessarily link between free markets and open societies.

Well firstly, you can look at Singapore, that's an interesting example of a country that is authoritarian that is very modern and very authoritarian, however it is also only A CITY, so maybe it's not a good example.

I think China is really authoritarian and Russia has really taken a lot of steps back towards authoritarian. The political structure of Russia allows the President to simply "dissolve" the Duma if he feels like it. Also it seems that the media is state-owned and now they are banning opposition candidates?

But look at Russia and China. These are measures they have had to adopt out of WEAKNESS. Russia's weakness in losing not only the Eastern bloc, and the CIS countries, but also total economic weakness, demographic weakness, and even weakness among the military (who were hazing each other to death and looting civilians) and weakness in society (with widespread corruption and the Russian mafia).

Similarly, China WAS a peasant society before it started its reforms in 1978. It STILL is mostly a peasant society. These kind of hybrid governments are a product of WEAKNESS, and thus I would expect the hybrid to turn into the pure democratic form once weakness turns into strength.

WEB

Brother Oz · 06-30-2007, 04:05 PM

Quote:

how does China have control over its economy, Oz? 1/3 of the economy is state run, but that is not the dynamic part, that's the part that's getting phased out everyday. China has also liberalized its banks (but I admittedly don't know how far that has gone.)

As you say, it still controls a third of the economy. That's a huge amount, the fact that it's not dynamic shows that their communism doesn't seem to work well, but not that they are communist. They have huge tariffs and massive subsidies to the private sector, as well as heavy regulations except in certain areas (where regulations were stripped away to create investment).
As to the banks, they are technically more independent than they were but considering how often the central bank bails them out, is that true independance?

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and now they are banning opposition candidates?

I haven't heard of that. Could you give an example? To be honest, it wouldn't shock me greatly if they were.