How do you feel about secularism and the rise of Islammism in Turkey, my old friend?


WEB

WEB, actually there is an ongoing struggle between the civilization and the religious fundamentalism. And I am like the millions of people in Turkey a little bit disappointed with the civilized world that most of them took side with Erdogan and Gul (islamists). Without secularism there wouldn't be freedoms, so it should be defended at any cost.

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You say "the civilized world" took the side of Erdogan. Does that mean that the leaders of the United States and Europe said that they approve Erdogan and that his Islammism is fine?


WEB

most of them veiled or openly show their support for ongoing government (See Rice's support), phraised their achievments?? in the paste 4,5 years, moreover today, some top politicians of EU issued an open letter, published in the International Herald Tribune stating that millions who fled to the streets (with the fear of their basic freedoms) are exaggerated the threats against secularism while Turkish people were reading this article in their newspaper : AKP-Dominated Istanbul Municipality Bans Swimsuit Ads .
Pity that some concession they could take from this islamist government looks more attractive to EU. Also US sees illusions that a moderate islamic form of democracy instead of a totally civilized and moden form would seen as a more attractive and acceptable reference for other muslim states that they may follow.

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I believe, if media permits, those western politicians will be in a position to explain it to their voters why did they supported this people :


against those people :



Most probably they would say democracy blah blah ...... Western hypocrasy at work, hugh ?

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That is really interesting, PE. Well you have seen that the US is allies with Saudi Arabia and they are the most fundamental of all the muslim states, IMO. I guess we value our good relations with the Turkish leaders more than secularism. That does seem pretty hypocritical. Have to agree with you there.


WEB

Public enemy. Once again, the EU is not opposing the Kemalists as democratic force.
Turkey is a candidate country, and as such it has to get its democracy straight. An army that regularely putshes away the democratically elected government does not fit in here. The army has to serve the government not make politics, as the army is in its nature highly undemocratic and thus has to be controlled by those with democratic legitimation.
See, I am aware of the threat you are drawing, but the army is the wrong bet here. Get your voting system straight, get the people to vote for a single laicist party that should then have no problems in beating the AKP (if its right what you said about the majority being kemalists).

But to try to save secularism by undermining democracy hardly is the great deal for a candidate country.

And once again. YES its about democracy. A country without a working democracy can't join the EU. I know you dont want that anyway (I mean the joining part), but Turkey still is a candidate country, and if it chooses an army ruled future it shall say so and we could save all the time and effort with the joining negotiations.

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"Every country gets the cuisine it deserves"

Europe does not support the islamists. Its on the side of the rule of law. And if the army putshes its outside the law. There is only one dictatorship left in Europe, and it is completely isolated, why should Europe betray its own principles when it comes to Turkey? A country I have heard that considers itself European as well?

To put it in othe words:
Its not our job to demand down a new government on you, its not the job of your army, its your job and the job of all your countrymen to do so.

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"Every country gets the cuisine it deserves"

I don't agree. Your point about EU - Turkey relations is one thing. I can understand the EU not wanting to meddle in Turkish internal affairs. They are not obligated to meddle in whether or not Turkish schools allow the hijab or whether the first lady can wear a hijab in the Presidential Palace or not.

However, it really means nothing to say "it's up to you and your countrymen to get your country straight." If Turkey must use the military, then they must use the military. If Islammism is sweeping across Turkey or any country, saying "it's up to you to stop it, just don't use the military" is equivalent to saying "accept your fate." It is up to the Turks, and many of them are going with Islammism. So either you agree that that is ok, or you don't. Obviously, secular and Islammist forces are both trying to advance their ideology.


WEB

I want to mention two things.

The first is that the example of Islammism and the military that stood out the most for me was in Algeria. Algeria in the 90's was a place torn apart by civil war. You had two major Islammist parties, a secular party and the government/army. The Islammist parties were so insane that they actually attacked all the other groups, including each other. The Islammists had organized a vote, and in that vote they were going to vote to end all votes in the future of Algeria. That is what you are up against, with these Islammists. Who stopped that vote?

The military.

The other thing I want to bring up about Islammism, I think the problem with Islammism is the gangster type mentality and bullying it brings and enforces upon people who do not agree. I just saw this story the other night about an Iraqi Kurd (Sunni) who fell in love with a Shi'ite. She was drug out into the street and brutally murdered. It was un-fucking believeable. A beautiful young woman drug out into the street, her blood flowing all over the place, being killed by stoning and kicking and punching. We are not even talking about a Muslim and a Christian, we are talking about two different sects of Islam. That's how fucked up Islammism is. That's why it must be stopped.


WEB