Are foreign agents immune of persecution when... ? - Political Forum

Slartibartfas · 03-05-2007, 07:50 AM

Does anyone of you have some knowledge about the rights of foreign intellgence agents?

The situation is the following. Agents of a foreign country commit a severe crime in a country, with the silent approval of the domestic government.

The action gets uncovered and starts to be subject of a legal trial in the affected country. It does indict the leading national intelligence officers for giving that approval (supposedly illegally) + those foreign agents who carried it out.

Now my question. Is there an international law that saves foreign agents from persecution for a criminal act they committed in another country, as long as the local government knew of their operation and did not oppose it?
Could anyone give me a link to some understandable source explaining this issue in a non-biased way?

Slartibartfas · 03-05-2007, 06:24 PM

Pretty complex issue, indeed.

Well lets come up with another example.

The CIA sends agents to Italy. Those agents dont appear as diplomats as far as I know, but as civilians. They have the order to kidnap someone and also do so. This action is brought to knowledge to the Italian secret service in time, that does not object it. Far parts of the Italian state remain unaware of that all, including the police forces and anti terror forces.

The Italian states justice system gets informed about the case and launches a trial indicting the (former) head of the Italian secret service as also the CIA agents.

In how far is international immunity of those agents a valid argument? According to what I read above it is none at all, did I read your post correctly?

Slartibartfas · 03-06-2007, 02:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorealist234

The person who sounds screwed is the former head of the italian ss. If the CIA agents are gone....you aren't going to get the US gov't to hand them over, but if they ever step on Italian soil, its fair game to arrest them.

But remember, I'm sure that these CIA agents used another identity; therefore, the Italian justice system is either chasing after the wrong guy or a guy that doesn't exist...You really need to catch them in the act.

Thats not the problem Italy has unveiled their real identities. Their cover was pretty low quality. The American chief of the operation had even a villa in Italy or so. He was the leading CIA men in Italy. Pronounciation on "was". For some reason this person preferred to leave Italy...

If they ever want to enter Europe again, they have to get a new identity. And even then there is the problem that its perfectly possible that the boarder controls have photographs from them.

You see, the CIA agents were pretty much dumbasses. Their operation was full of errors, as they felt 100% safe. They forgot that Italy has also an intelligence service and also anti terror forces who were made at the US as they fucked into their own business without their own knowledge and being afterwards even getting lied by the US. They could find several tracks back to the US. Uncovered credid cards for example. As the kidnapping took place in the middle of the day on a busy street there are also tons of witnesses. Not to forget the large celebration for the accomplished mission that is very well reconstructed by the Italian police.

I read even that the LA Times found 3 of the accused (even though it did not print their address due to American laws.) So dont worry, knowing who to indict was not even the major problem. And the fact that the CIA is very nervous about it, shows that there are some hits they have a good reason to worry about.

Slartibartfas · 03-06-2007, 02:14 AM

So what do you think then about the threats from the US towards Italy and Germany to either kill the trials or to feel the consquences? "Consequences" are believed to be things like a large shut down of any intelligence cooperation between the US and Europe (even though I doubt if this would not be a larger disadvantage for the US). But possible is everything I guess.

Do you think the US do not understand that also in Europe the states have independent justice systems, or are they trying to move the governments to undermine that?

PS:
Yes the Italian leading officer is toast. He won't leave Italy anytime near...

The American agents will be in urgent need of a new face when they want to go to Europe anytime again. In Italy they can be convicted in absence as well you know (when the indicted choose not to appear and sufficient evidence proves that he is guilty). Then its enough that they are caught, to go directly to Italian jails for years.

kgcpo · 03-07-2007, 02:25 AM

Interesting to read your views, are you not aware that America bullies every Country and abuses laws in that Country. Here in England, American diplomats abide by no rules, your CIA abducts , tortures and abuses. You have no human rights and abuse all, terrorist financers. Poor America, always the victim.

sarukun · 03-07-2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kgcpo

Interesting to read your views, are you not aware that America bullies every Country and abuses laws in that Country. Here in England, American diplomats abide by no rules, your CIA abducts , tortures and abuses. You have no human rights and abuse all, terrorist financers. Poor America, always the victim.

How persuasive.

I presume you are just moments away from citing the incidents you're referring to?

This kind of attitude is pretty American of you. I guess we don't have a monopoly on spouting generalities and half-truths and not backing up our opinions with actual facts or examples: turns out that particular trait can be found pretty much anywhere in the world.

If you have beef with someone and what they're doing, it'd be a lot more effective to have something specific to argue rather than spouting unfocused, sweeping generalizations. You sound like a racist.

Slartibartfas · 03-07-2007, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarukun

How persuasive.

I presume you are just moments away from citing the incidents you're referring to?

This kind of attitude is pretty American of you. I guess we don't have a monopoly on spouting generalities and half-truths and not backing up our opinions with actual facts or examples: turns out that particular trait can be found pretty much anywhere in the world.

If you have beef with someone and what they're doing, it'd be a lot more effective to have something specific to argue rather than spouting unfocused, sweeping generalizations. You sound like a racist.

The CIA is accused of the act of kidnapping in two European countries. A German Citizen in Macedinio during a journey and an Italian citizen even plainly from the open straight at the middle of the day in his home town.

Moreover they are accused of having practiced "extraordinary rendition" with them, ie to transfer them to torturing countries, where the kidnapped were supposedely severly tortured. This is outsourcing torture which is illegal according to the ban of torture, which the US has signed and is obliged to.

The CIA is furthermore accused of running secret prisons and holding ghost prisons. Even though the locations of those prisons (that might also change regularely, or might be naval vessels) are unknown, there have been many reports some of them just very recently, that prove that there are still dozens of "ghost prisoners". People who simply disappeared and where a strong possibility exists that they are held captive by the US. Thats a neglection of the most basic human rights, as well as a perversion of the rule of law.

Precise enough?

Slartibartfas · 03-07-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorealist234

The agents obviously won't be going to jail, but they probably will lose their jobs for the blunder of being exposed...secrecy is imperative in this industry. When you mess it up, you need to face the consequences. I can understand why US officials would say "face the consequences" though...They are playing one of their only cards. Who knows what kind of dirt they have on these judges or Italian prosecutors...Its the CIA.

Its pretty clear, you don't repect their integrity (which might be fair) but make no mistake, they aren't dumb. They make mistakes...no organization is perfect.

But I would take them over ANY OTHER foreign intelligence service in the world...especially in conjunction with the NSA, which is arguably more resourceful and influential than the CIA.

Bottom line, operatives and mgmt collections officer(s) messed up big by getting caught. Whoever put them in charge of such a shoddy operation needs to be questioned. I'm ont questioning the initial act nor the threat of "consequence" to the judges/prosecutors. That's just the nature of the espionage game. 99.99% of people just don't understand that...you included.

I hope I'm not coming off too abrasive or direct. I'm a bit partial to our national intelligence agencies. There purpose isn't to help the world...its to help the US...at the presidents discretion of course.

mhm. So what do you think about the demand of a person that worked in the vicinity of the President who commented in the Washington Post that the Congress shall make it a crime for any citizen of any country of the world trying to indict CIA agents who are according to the author immune?

Sounds pretty weird.

And regarding the trials in Germany and Italy. So your position is that those trials are perfectly right, but understandably Europe should not expect any help from the US. (Also regarding extradition etc). Did I get you right?

Las but not least, what would you say, if a European intelligence service would kidnap an innocent American citizen from American streets to transfer him to outsourced torture?

sarukun · 03-07-2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

The CIA is accused of the act of kidnapping in two European countries. A German Citizen in Macedinio during a journey and an Italian citizen even plainly from the open straight at the middle of the day in his home town.

Moreover they are accused of having practiced "extraordinary rendition" with them, ie to transfer them to torturing countries, where the kidnapped were supposedely severly tortured. This is outsourcing torture which is illegal according to the ban of torture, which the US has signed and is obliged to.

The CIA is furthermore accused of running secret prisons and holding ghost prisons. Even though the locations of those prisons (that might also change regularely, or might be naval vessels), there have been many reports some of them just very recently, that prove that there are still dozens of "ghost prisoners". People who simply disappeared and where a strong possibility exists that they are held captive by the US. Thats a neglection of the most basic human rights, as well as a perversion of the rule of law.

Precise enough?

Very, thank you.

I have beef with people using the internet as a soap box to spout opinion as if it were fact. If you can be specific and back up your words with something worthwhile, then you can say anything you like. If you want to talk like you're a priori correct, then I have issue with you.

Slartibartfas · 03-07-2007, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neorealist234

There are always exceptions to rules...always. Absolutism is never a good approach.

Sometimes the means justify the ends.

As far as I can see, has the administration alone the power to define who belongs to the exemption or not. Which effectively ruins the whole checks and balances of your system.

Where does the US go to when the CIA starts to fool around in the work that is the domain of your police?

What argument do you have against my claim that this exemptions could get excessive in numbers and nature? And even more importantly, who would prevent it?