anya

I don't know there seem to be so many accounts of how things were that it really is becoming a minefield. For such an atrocious nation, they certainly had some incredibly decent thinking people leave it which just seems weird to me.



That was a particular thing said to a particular person.

However, surely you could find a much better example of Buddhists being violent if you took Sri Lanka. You are of course very correct that every religion can be used to do whatever it wants.

I don't equate self defense with violence so if you wish to tell me of awful things that the Zen-Chan monks got up to then please feel free.

I guess it is about how you use Buddhsim. I have no problem with self defense and as I understand it many martial arts are baced on deep spirituality.

However I understand Buddhism both within it's teachings and even more certainly within it's practice to be non violent. It is a spiritual practice and the reality is that even without any theory, it is impossible for a person coming from their heart to wish to harm anyone. It quite simply is against it's nature.

Within it's teachings - can you please tell me where in Buddhism it says, now we will stop practicing compassion and beat the hell out of these people?

As for the monks and others in Tibet. I was concerned to see people running after one isolated individual person and pummeling into him....and yes I did think that was not a Buddhist way to act...but I also recognized that within that situation they had been pushed too far as I am surprised you did not notice.

cindy6

Yes, you're getting this info from the media. But most scholars who actually study Tibetan history would argue otherwise. Wikipedia does a decent summary of the Tibetan view, Chinese view, and a balanced view. You can check out the Encyclopedia Britannica or similar publications as well.

Yes, you should be. But what exactly are the problems? Who told you that? Are their testimonies trustworthy? How wide-spread are the problems?

You have to remember that most Tibetans in exiles belong to old Tibetan aristocracy (about 5% of the population) and they have an axe to grind with the Chinese government who had took away their land We have already witnessed the Iraqi exiles' testimonies about WMD in Iraq.

Barry Sautman, a leading scholar on Tibet, pointed out that there is now 1 monk or nun for every 35 Tibetans, “the highest of any Buddhist country in the world, and much higher than the relation of ministers and priests to parishioners in any Christian country in the world, where the ratio is often 1 to 1,000.”
And unlike in Christian countries, these clergies are paid by public money and heavily subsidized by tax revenue from China proper.

No I have not. I'm not the spokesperson for the Chinese government. But I do have my doubt about his culpability, as talk is cheap. While the DL openly advocates for non-violence, the following is his spokesman Dawa Tsering’s definition of non-violence (interviewed by Radio France International on 04/02/2008 )

“ We saw Tibetans beat Han Chinese in videos, but those were just beating. The Han Chinese could run away after beating. That’s just beating, not hurt to lives. For those who killed (by Tibetans) were because of accidents, they went upstairs and hide when Tibetans smashed the doors. They stayed hidden when Tibetans set the fire. They were accidentally burnt to death. So these were just accidents, not slaughters.”

So perhaps I (and many other Chinese) may be excused for doubting his sincerity.


Like what?
If you mean the possibility of involvement of the DL, I've mentioned above. And there are other evidence that give me pause. No, the evidences so far have not been conclusive, so I'm keeping an open opinion for the time being. But there are PLENTY of reports in the western media that are just ludicrous over the riots. Does this mean all western media are liars and cannot be trust? I personally would not be so haste, and try to read between the lines.


The protests in Lhasa went on peacefully for several days in Lhasa, and were left alone. It's only when riots broke out that police was called in. No, this is not just what the Chinese government claimed. This has been verified by journalists and independent travelers present during the riots as well.

If there's another riot in Beijing or any other Chinese city, I certainly hope the govt. will act decisively and bring back law and order ASAP.


Eyewitnesses Recount Terrifying Day in Tibet
Eyewitnesses Recount Terrifying Day in Tibet - washingtonpost.com

CNN’s interview of James Miles, journalist from the Economist, in Lhasa during the riots


Rioting in Lhasa



What make you think the rioters have any political cause? Did black ppl rioted in LA because they want independence? Did North Africans rioted in Paris because they are not free?

And to blame the victims for the violence inflicted on them is despicable. It's like blaming a woman dressing too flimsily for being raped.

I have only heard of arrests so far. Given the scale of the rampage, I personally see nothing wrong. Perhaps you can enlighten the rest of us on what exactly that you'd heard?


Anya, the torch has not passed thru LA. It's SF.
Attacking a female torch-bearer on wheelchair by a burly man is hardly just "a bit rough".

Again, the torch never passed thru LA

Objectives of the Tibetan Youth Congress, a major organizer of these protests.
To dedicate oneself to the task of serving one’s country and people under the guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Spiritual and Temporal Ruler of Tibet.
To promote and protect national unity and integrity by giving up all distinctions based on religion, regionalism or status.
To work for the preservation and promotion of religion and Tibet’s unique culture and traditions.
To struggle for the total independence of Tibet even at the cost of one’s life.


Yes, I agree with you on this one.

I think the Tibetans have legitimate grievances and some changes definitely are called for. However, I personally think the root cause is largely due to economic competition. As such, their protests have been hijacked by the pro-independence exiles.

From the 2000 census:
Tibetans Han Chinese others
92.8% 6.1% 1.2%

And I shall quote from Barry Sautman on this issue:
"A preliminary analysis of the 2005 mini-census shows that from 2000-2005 there was a small increase in the proportion of Han in the central-western parts of Tibet (the Tibet Autonomous Region or TAR) and little change in eastern Tibet. "
" Some 85% of Han who migrate to Tibet to establish businesses fail; they generally leave within two to three years. "

I said that because someone's was advocating returning the exiles to power. I actually do believe in autonomy for Tibet. I myself live in Hong Kong, which enjoys substantial autonomy, and the operation is acknowledged to be a success by most observers. But since the CURRENT government in Dharamsala is a theocracy, I don't think they offer the best model for Tibet in the future.

You see, there's quite a substantial difference between what I actually believe and what you THINK I believe A lot of angry protests from the Chinese are reactions to gross accusations from ppl, while caring about the welfare of the Tibetans, who are not very familiar with the issues involved. This is not Hollywood movie and things usually are not in black and white.

It's rather tiring writing such long posts. If you're interested in learning more about the various aspects of Tibet, rather than forming opinions on rumors and impressions, perhaps you might like to check out this discussion on PBS. It's very long winded, but definitely worth the efforts. Or check out the books by Melvyn Goldstein, who is considered as the preeminent scholar on Tibet.
PBS Discussions :: View topic - In response to Tony Martin (in relation to the Tibet issue)

Parisyann

Yes, they rioted in Paris because they're not as free as French due to police checkings, etc. I think it was the same in LA...

Torch relayers are supposed to be healthy running athletes. Why is a torch-bearer on a wheelchair? It's not the Handi-Olympics. Sounds like PR China was looking forward to having troubles at the expense of a female on wheelchair...

__________________
History is a nightmare from which I am trying to awake - Ulysses, James Joyce.

anya

There are masses of different history's of Tibet on the net, others I have read and others I have heard on tv. I'm left with no choice but to choose who I will believe and you will not be pleased to hear that is the Free Tibet people. They clearly have connections with people most closely associated with Tibet.Here is the link

Free Tibet Campaign File - Proving Truth from Facts

There's quite a lot of information on this available.

Here is a piece

“1994-present: In the Third Forum on Work in Tibet, held in 1994, China shifted its religious policy to actively suppress and restrict further religious growth. Previous policies, while repressive, sought to control and manage religious life rather than to suppress it (A Season to Purge: Religious Repression in Tibet, International Campaign for Tibet, 1996). There are three aspects to the severe measures that began in 1994:
i.elimination of political opposition and pro-independence views of monks and nuns
ii.the aim of discrediting the Dalai Lama as a religious and political leader
iii.control of religious institutions in both activity and size (Cutting Off the Serpent's Head: Tightening Control in Tibet 1994-1995, Tibet Information Network [TIN] & Human Rights Watch/Asia, 1996).”
or link to the full article Free Tibet Campaign - Control of Religion


He appears to be suggesting that while Chinese people got beatings, Tibetans have lost their lives. What he is saying may be true, but only being told a small part out of context, I can't say much on it. That's why China needs open investigations where people are allowed to speak their mind. Otherwise things just remain in this silly land where you can only make up your mind on the best information you can find and believe is believable.

It means that as I said before because China is not open and accountable it makes me more likely to believe it has something to hide. There is zero evidence that the Dalia Lama had anything to do with the uprisings. You can't just say someone is responsible and that makes them responsible, you have to provide proof .


I refer you to the second part of the Third Forum on Work in Tibet, held in 1994 mentioned above

'the aim of discrediting the Dalia Lama as a religious and political leader'

Well it says in the videos you left that hey have grievances. They now have their country over run with the populance of an occupying force. I'd say that is is pretty political.

Which LA riots are you referring. If they were the 1992 ones, yes that was political. Parisyann has already answered about the French ones saying they were political.

I have never blamed victims so that is a bit rude.

I heard tales of torture. Again if you need to keep hidden, clearly people will be suspicious.
I beg your pardon. I was tired and confused by you saying
I thought you were talking about the recent demonstrations concerning the torch and didn't realize you would suddenly start talking about riots in the US in 1992. I do know the torch was in San Fransisco. That was a simple error, brought about by tiredness and you suddenly bringing LA into things.

Parisyann has dealt with the issue of the torch. It also was provocative to have these burly Chinese bouncers around the flag when there was such feeling. I didn't actually see her but I did see the London scuffle and it looked like the roughness of the Chinese Torch Guards contributed to the problem considerably.

Sounds pretty political to me!!

I don't believe that Al Qaeda is interested in much more than forcing everyone into their kind of Islam and setting up barbaric governments with themselves in change. However, I do believe they have used real problems to recruit. They are political and need sorting. Al Qaeda has no respect for life so they are a completely different issue as I said before.

The population of Tibet is something else there appears to be differences of opinion. I read somewhere else the other day that Tibetans are now outnumbered by Chinese in their own country. I believe I have also seen this in this forum.


The Dalia lama has made it crystal clear that he would introduce democracy in Tibet. He should rightfully be allowed home.

Trust me I have no desire to continue such long replys. You have not convinced me at all.

anya

I have been reflecting a little more on your saying
'Objectives of the Tibetan Youth Congress, a major organizer of these protests.
To dedicate oneself to the task of serving one’s country and people under the guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the Spiritual and Temporal Ruler of Tibet.
To promote and protect national unity and integrity by giving up all distinctions based on religion, regionalism or status.
To work for the preservation and promotion of religion and Tibet’s unique culture and traditions.
To struggle for the total independence of Tibet even at the cost of one’s life.'

and your linking the Tibetan people to Al Qaeda

I am aware firstly that you haven't given your source for this, so cannot be sure that it is genuinely the Objectives of the Tibetan Youth Congress.

However if it is then I would have thought it was categorically saying that the people of Tibet do not want to be occupied and want to live under their own choices.

I am concerned that you try to link them to Al Qaeda. Stories I have heard of the Tibetan people have never described them as lacking courage and when people are desperate they are prepared to risk their lives if necessary. To compare the situation of the Tibetans to Al Qaeda seems like an emotionally motivated way to cause discrimination in people's minds.

As I said, I do not know if what you presented above is true but if it is, it simply depicts the desperation of a badly treated people who wish to be free of occupation.

cindy6

I do NOT link Tibetan people to al-Qaeda. I have traveled extensively in the Middle East and the Arabs are the most friendly people in the world. Similarly I would never consider the average Tibetan as a terrorist.

But the TYC, it's quite another story. The quote is taken from their website. You can simply google for their site and take a look. From the chatter so far, ant link I give you might be suspected as a fake website

anya

My mistake then Cindy. You had put them together a couple of times and I had thought this was what you were meaning. Glad we got that sorted out

I have been to their site. I'm not sure I understand what you find so strange about them. With regard to even at the cost of one's life, I think they may be referring to things like this

'29th April: Death anniversary of Pawo Thupten Ngodup

'Tibetan Youth Congress organised Hunger Strike unto Death in Delhi in 1998 to pressure the United Nations to implement the International Commission of Jurist recommendation of 1997 report on Tibet. The first batch of hunger strike consists of six members of TYC, which was disrupted and breaks up by the Indian police on their forty-ninth days of fast. Mr. Thupten Ngodup, who was in the second batch of hunger strike dies of self-immolation on 29th April, 1998 at Ram Monohar Lohia Hospital in New Delhi. TYC remembered this day to mourn the selfless sacrifices and pay our profound homage to all the martyrs of Tibet.'

I don't know if you realize that Free Tibet marches were never against the Chinese people. I was well pleased to see them happening because I had been interested in the culture of Tibet for years and it seemed there was nothing we could do. Then the Olympics allowed us to make our voice heard - till your government found crafty ways to stop this !

A lot of us watched Tiananmen Square in 1989 and could not believe our eyes when this ended with thousands of students being killed and we were able to do nothing about it.

My argument was never against the Chinese people, but was and is about human rights and freedoms, which to me is about social conscience.

cindy6

Anya, by supporting separatism (be it Tibet, Xinjiang, or wherever), you ARE against the Chinese people, regardless of your good intentions. Your worthy causes (human rights and freedoms) are being tainted by association, and being discredited by the average Chinese on the street.

You have to realize territorial integrity is WAY more important than a sporting event. Even if nobody shows up, we will not let give in.

In 1989, most Chinese were against our government. I myself had joined a rally denouncing the CCP. But this time, ethnic Chinese all over the world are supporting the Chinese government. Have you wondered why? I used to support negotiation with the DL, but not anymore. Is this a result you desire?

anya

I wouldn't change my position unless I genuinely changed my point of view. I believe that human rights are more important than being liked by the Chinese in the same way as I believe that honesty in a relationship is more important than getting on all the time....and there are Chinese people at the moment who cannot be here with us because they are in prison because of their point of views!

anya

Cindy, I've only answered half of what you said.
I have never said the Olympics should be avoided....might have wanted a few Tibetan flags waving a bit though....

and I am not against the Chinese people even if that's what they think.

I'm puzzled when you write 'I used to support negotiation with the DL, but not anymore. Is this a result you desire?'

You will know I am not responsible for what you think. I can hear that you have been feeling hurt and angry but that will change...