Political Forum

Dear guest,

Welcome to the internet's top destination for the civil discussion of politics. This is a forum for discussion and debate of the issues, and not for personal remarks aimed at other discussants.

This forum has no political affiliation and welcomes your perspective on the issues. Membership is free. If you would like to join the discussions and debates please REGISTER HERE.

All new members should review the forum rules. The "Today's Posts" button automatically adjusts itself to fit your screen on its first use for Firefox and on its second use, for Internet Explorer. Have a pleasant day. (This is a spam free board.)

  #1 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2006, 07:21 PM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,858
Location: Vedunia
Country:
EP: EU member states knew of CIA flights

The European Parliament has a new draft report on the rendition issue. It claims that at least 11 governments in the EU either passively or even actively cooperated with the CIA in its flights.

Moreover it says that, except Germany and Spain all the other member states showed a severe lack of cooperation. And even top EU officials are accused of having odd forms of amnesia and even stating not the full truth.

Here you can read more:
BBC NEWS | Europe | EU nations 'knew about CIA jails'





PS:
And here for fun, read what "News MAX" made out of the story. I rarely have read such a bad article before. It nearly seems they are reporting from something else than most of the papers around them.

EU Report Blasts U.S. Detainee Policy

The highlights:
"The anti-American tone of the draft report was stunning, even to close observers of the European investigation." (so extreme no other paper reckognized it, apart from the fact that this draft is in first line directed at the European politicians)

"Their draft report, released on Tuesday in Brussels, was a bald condemnation of the U.S.-led war on terror and of the European governments and officials who have assisted it." (see, critizing "renditions" and actions violating our laws is a "bald condemnation of the ... war on terror)

"In a throwback to the policies of the Clinton administration, the European report insisted that "terrorism must be fought by legal means," "
(Thats in fact ironic. Nasty Europeans insist to obey law once again )

Last edited by Slartibartfas : 11-28-2006 at 07:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Voland's Avatar
Governor General
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 767
Location: Luxembourg
Country:
I guess the question is not if we should feel sorry for them or not but that we well may end up in the devils kitchen ( to use a german saying ) if we allow our authorities to do that. A ban of torture has to complete or is irrelevant. Also I recall many people with experience in the field of intelligence agreeing that information obtained from tortured informers rarely turns out to be valuable.
Concerning certain european governements publicly denouncing the Bush administration and playing the "standing up to the cowboys card" to gain votes while secretly cooperating that is sadly not new but once again confirmed by this report...

Last edited by Voland : 11-29-2006 at 11:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2006, 01:42 PM
Lord
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 307
Location: everywhere
Talking about touturing people with ties to terrorist? What about the Saudi royal family? They are related to Bin Laden, and where up to 9/11, business partners with George Bush. Hmmmmm. Fishy.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2006, 02:23 PM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,858
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois View Post
Well I guess it goes to the fundamental issue of: is it ethical to torture people suspected of being terrorists. Honestly, I don't feel too bad for people with ties to terrorists being tortured for information.
No, we dont have to dig that deep. Its about the question if we want to live under the rule of law or not. If we want the rule of law than illegal actions (what those CIA flights were in several aspects) have to be stopped, persecuted and prevented.

The alternative to the rule of the law is the rule of the stronger. Some might prefer that. But I can't see that in Europe you would find ever a majority for that, as long as our democracies prevail.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2006, 02:27 PM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,858
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois View Post
Personally, I do not fear being labelled a terrorist and tortured. As soon as people are taken, who have no connection to any terrorist in any way shape or form, and held and tortured, that will be the end of that policy. Just imagine that, if some non-Muslim person were just taken and then tortured. Then afterwards he goes to the press and it will be all over the headlines for the entire week. "Man taken and tortured for No Reason." Every editorial and radio show host would be talking about how Bush or whoever is in charge is torturing people for political gain and that this is a horrible abuse of power.

The policy of torturing people will be eliminated the moment it becomes excessive.
So whats the difference? Muslim people have been kidnapped, tortured with no right for no sense, and were set free in some desert. They survived, made it back to Europe and reported the media...

... what happened? Right, nothing, except some Americans shouting Terrorist sympathizers. Not even our own governments honestly care about it.


And thats legitimized just because this person happens to be muslim???
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2006, 02:31 PM
Slartibartfas's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,858
Location: Vedunia
Country:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoftheworld View Post
Talking about touturing people with ties to terrorist? What about the Saudi royal family? They are related to Bin Laden, and where up to 9/11, business partners with George Bush. Hmmmmm. Fishy.
So what? Its a difference if some others do bad things, or if we are directly responsible for them.

Its easy, but nonetheless often necessary to point the finger at others. But you loose every credibility if you dont look into the mirror regularely. The report I wrote above about is such a mirror. But those in front of the mirror all close their eyes.

And not to forget, haven't the wester "civilized" countries once proclaimed to be better than sinister dictatorships when it comes to human rights? Or whats next to say Bin Laden kills innocents by purpose, so we shall too?
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:06 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0
A vBSkinworks Design
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=

right