Slartibartfas

Not many know it, this hidden place, its called "Quartier Leopold". At least thats how it allways has been called. Not many know, still its something special. Its unknown and known at the same time, it sounds insignificant and unimportant, and still mighty people come and go in such a regular way you could suppose they see their own homes not as often. It houses the largest international press corps on earth, and still it is never named.

A nearly surreal place, old world charme is interrupted and intermixed with giant collosses of glass and steel. What is this "quartier Leopold"? Everyone knows it but not many have ever heard about it, where past is present but future allready began. Feared by the one side, fundament of hope for others.



This Quartier is a riddle, but perhaps it only is, because people know only its new "name". Its the place where Belgium ends and Europe begins. No one knows the quartier Leopold, but the modern inofficial label "EU quarter" is one that solves it easily. Its the new second political heart of Brussels.



Whats so special about it, this heart of the "EU capital Brussels"? The Austrian Brussels correspondant wrote a great article why it is. Its the miracle, that such a red tape fortress like this quartier Leopold is one, does something noone would believe:

It changes people. A common phenomene, Austrians, Spaniards, French etc even Britons move to it, but in case they should return home one day again, Europeans come back. How can this happen? Ultra sceptic British MEP'S, reporters of the even more critical EU condemning paper the "Daily Mail", suddenly end up in either being a secret fan, or to swap openly the sides. Not the first Daily Mail correspondant who works today for pro European think tanks, no even for the very heart of the "evil EU", there seems to be no halt. Some of them work today even for the EU Commission.

The quarter Leopold must be feared by all those who detest the EU, not only because its the heart of what they hate so much, not because its a giant dump of red tape, of nontransparency ... no, also because they allready lost so many good men to it. They send their men into the heart of the EU and instead of them changing it, the people themselves change.


It seems Babylon exists somewhere on earth, a Babylon that functions. After all, the secret lies in the fact that the quartier Leopold is not just a place where regulations are produced one after each others, its a place where people come together, they come together also apart from politics, people live there, their childrens go to European schools while their parents are paid by an entity that did not even exist 50 years ago. But the very secret about this place is, that its not a ghetto in the middle of Europe, the secret is that constantly newbies come and others go again, back to where they came from, or somewhere else.

The quartier Leopold... where Europe begins.

Slartibartfas

So anyone wants to bring in his opinion?

Is Brussels developing into the real Capital of Europe? Is it already an existing prototype of a united Europe, where hundred thousand Europeans from all corners of the continent live and work,?

Or is Brussels transforming into a "space ship" that will soon take off completely, a truly European capital with no European hinterlands?


How is it possible that sincere and strong sceptics in considerable numbers already capitulated although they were supposed to make fundamental opposition within eg the European Parliament?

Heart of Oak

Well Slarti, as an enthusiastic European I must admit that I had never heard of the Quartier Leopold. The way you describe it, there seemd to be more than a touch of magic about the place It really must have something if adherents to the Daily Mail can become converts to the EU.

I beleive that the idea of a European Union is a great opportunity for all member states to co-operate, trade and legislate in a peaceful manner that has been virtually unheard of for the last 1500 years. It seems that up until now European history has been an almost uninterupted series of invasions and wars.
I think it is great that Europeans can live and work and trade in each others countries without the monstorous red tape of previous times.
It is true that such a large entity does need a large bureaucracy and at times the citizen only hears of the short comings of this monolith however I feel that we all benifit from common regulations and standards.
As for enlargement, I feel that the ill fated European constitution must be put in place to make it clear the role and responsibilities of all instead of the piece meal trearies that currently regulate the "Club".

Many folk in Britain are very sceptical of the EU but I say bring it on!!!

Zebra

I think I am a Eurosceptic, but have to admit I am not up on Euro affairs. I would love to share enthusiasm for it but I think it is misplaced. I think we should be more like Switzerland and stay out of it. I am told by people I assume know better than me that this would harm the UK economy. The Swiss seem to trade with the EU ok.

If people want a united Europe they need to start doing things that create unity and stop doing what is driving us apart.

What would create more unity : (None of which will ever happen)
1. A common language. As an English speaker, I should would be interested in what the speakers of the other languages would choose.
2. We need to be in unanimous agreement before passing any EU legislation that would affect the laws of any member nation. Each nation should be able to withdraw from any EU legislative act as and when the national governments decides.
3. We need to choose individual and discrete agreements, such as a common policy on CO2 emissions for example. The more successful agreements, the more we can see progress.

What divides us:
1. Language.
2. Unhelpful and imposed EU legislation, such as the EU Human Rights Act 1998. This (I was reading) has never been used to help an innocent person in the world. Sorry I cannot quote my source for this. In the UK all convicts are denied the right to vote while in prison. This was under review, following an October 2005 ruling of the European Court that a blanket ban is disproportionate. Lord Faulkener said that it might result in some, but not all, prisoners being able to vote. Our media does not report much on such legislation, so I have no idea if more criminals can help to outvote me than before. This does not matter, as I have no idea who I am voting for in the Euro elections and I do not think my vote makes a difference there anyway.
3. Corruption in the EU.
4. Passing legislation individual nations find objectionable. (On the odd occasions we hear what has been passed!)

In short we need more democratic decisions that are in touch with the electorate and less corruption stories. And why fine store owners for selling bananas by the pound instead of the kilogram? Really necessary expenditure? You know what I mean Heart of Oak. Our US friends have better things to do with their time than even think of that nonsense. Slartibartfas will know too, I think.

I probably know less of Europe than I do of the USA. I feel less at home here than I do there. I think I need a citizenship exchange scheme! The Eurowits think that the British are crazy and the Americans do things on a grand scale.
I remember being taught that Britain is ‘an island off the coast of Europe’.

The Eurotrend did not stop the Icelandic Fish War and I wonder if the EU would have stopped it now, if the issue had arisen today. Would we still have UK frigates and Icelandic gunboats bumping each other on the high seas?

Slartibartfas

First of all, welcome on board, Rhad.

Switzerland is always a good example. If mentioned I like to add some details.
Switzerland is entering the Shengen area, thats an area the UK is not a member of even though its one of the heart principles of the EU. It looks like they are going to pay more to the EU from next year on than the not really small netto payer Austria does, even though they are not even a member. And if you compare the economical data of Switzerland and Austria, (Austria joined 1995, at a time also Switzerland discussed about doing so) you see that Switzerland has lost momentum in the last decade. Of coures I could also mention that Switzerland does pretty much follow European standards and regulations already now, simply because their little country could not afford to go a different way on many economic issues.

All in all: Switzerland goes its way, and its not doomed due to being outside of the EU. And the way Switzerland is going seems also clear, its the way of an increasingly tighter connection to the EU, not the other way round.

I would formulate it that way, we need a common second language in the EU. This language will be English, even the French will have to get used to this idea, even the more as also in the new member states the choice would be English. That choice for English is not based on the fact that everybody thinks the English view of Europe is such a great thing that we should all speak the language of the UK, but its based on pure rationality. Already today half of all EU citizens understand English. No question that these numbers will increase further.

To impose a single first language on all Europeans however is not only an illusion but also a nightmare. Apart from the fact that it simply can not work, never. It does not make much sense either, to know a common second language is totally enough.


This paragraph does not demand more than completely dismantling the EU. The demand reaches so far that there even exist simple international organisations that get into conflict with it. And they do not even pretend to be a political union.

A single common European legislation for issues that are decided on Union level is the very very core of the idea. If you abolish it, you abolish every form of not even a political union but also the largest part of the economic one.

Don't you see it too, that you lead the word "legislation" ad absurdum if anyone can opt out anytime he likes to? What is the sense of laws, if no one has to care about them? In this case I would suggest to you to get rid of all of this stuff completely as it would save money to spare yourself a pseudo legislation that has no meaning nor a sense.



We have already common agreements on CO2. But as true as the fact is that we have such a thing, it is that it does not work sufficiently. The problem is not so much the EU here, but the very basic difficulties many memberstates experience. But at least Europe successfully established the CO2 certificate stock exchange. Thats an important first step on a long way to go. Btw, just lately I heard about it that the EU commission pressed for some rejustments concerning the CO2 agreements. There will definitely be some action in the next time on European level regarding this issue.

Sorry I dont know much about this case either. I just think to remember that the EU has not much competences about human rights.

Are you perhaps refering to the European Court of Human Rights?
This is no EU institution and also has nothing to do with it. But its the highest court in Europe when it comes to Human Rights violations.

Corruption is an issue. Everywhere where more than 90% of the budget is about subsidies its determined that it has to be one.
But interestingly the large majority of corruption cases does not root at the EU insitutions but at the member states either at local (member states) institutions or are caused by fraud by private persons.
Of course there have been corruption case inside of the EU institutions too, but if one looks at it objectively, its not more than what would be the average of the member states. And in fact, corrupt politicians also have to take the consquences for their actions, also on EU level. Just remind the Santers commission. It had to resign because it would had been impeached otherwise by the EU Parliament.

Thats not the fault of the EU though. If someone criticize that he does not get informed enough about European matters, one has to ask, why this person does not inform himself simply?

Media in Britain simply don't report about European issues. At best you could observe some anti-EU coverage reflexes at deeply anti EU papers like the Sun or the Daily Mail. Thats not a bias from my side, just look it up yourself, when have those papers written the last time an article about an European issue where the EU did not do something bad? And as much as criticism is necessary and right, its somehow a bit odd that there should never happen anything of significance where the EU is acting at least not negatively.

But anyway, everyone who is interested in what is going on in the EU, has tons of possibilites at the internet. There are some pretty professional European magazines and newspapers online. For example:
EUobserver.com
cafebabel.com, European current affairs magazine : comment and analysis from Europe in 7 languages
EUpolitix.com –Â*EU - European Union: European Parliament, MEPs, European Commission & legislation news
etc
Just have a look at them.

The EU itself hosts an immense internet presence: Europa - The European Union On-Line
If someone just wants to get a first glimpse on how the EU really is built up and works, already the Wikipedia article does a great job too. So in fact if someone wants to get informed about Europe, he also can easily do so online. And in case the media should discover that people show a great interest, to get real articles about real European issues, not just the British fears projected on a continental beamer-wall, they will also start to inform their readers about them.

Slartibartfas

Welcome you too, Heart of Oak.

I share you point that we have to most urgently get the political unions primary law straight again. If we dont do so before we enlarge even further, we will risk a major insitutional crises and a European halt. That can not be in our all interest.

Zebra

Department for Constitutional Affairs - People's Rights - Human rights - Frequently asked questions

You are quite right: the Human R 1998 act is British and is from The European Convention on Human Rights. This is another problem with not dismantling the EU. It is sometimes unclear who is responsible for what. The average citizen is going to keep himself informed? In which language does an Austrian keep himself informed of Italian events? Only an economic union is required. We need to stick to the EEC concept. A federal Europe that is democratic is very distant. Actually, the UK has regional assemblies now as people felt too remote from London. If it is an attractive, inspiring European concept that is required, it should start with a second language as you put it. A process of integration. The British should learn one too. (Note: Michael Moore suggests only about 30% of USA university graduates have a second language.)

Note: Legislation may be National legislation or EU legislation.

Speaking for myself, I have no more interest in what is happening in Europe than I have in any other part of the world. I have as much antipathy towards nationalism as I have towards most ’isms. (I find organised religion more worrying). The loosest possible alliance or confederation between the states of the EU is what I think will work best. A process, not an institution. I don’t care if Germany has different laws to the UK at all. Having the mutual option of living there or in UK is a good thing.

I agree that it may not help much to read the Daily Mail. It is a fact of life that successful newspapers angle their articles to make them attractive to their readership. If one wants to keep the people informed, sell the newspaper. And if one wants to sell the newspaper, don’t tell people what they are not ready to hear. A modern media conundrum. Many British editors seem to despise the intelligence of their own readership and so sometimes reveal their own conceit. The problem of defeating voter ignorance in the EU is truly daunting even if we had a second language. I certainly would not suggest imposing a language. The EU cannot be democratic and is in no position to impose anything on anyone, without the express consent of their national government.

The Cod War : BBC ON THIS DAY | 20 | 1973: Royal Navy moves to protect trawlers
Oh yes, that’s what it was called. Can the EU Save Our Fish?
BBC NEWS | Science/Nature | North Sea cod fishing ban urged
theparliament.com - France let off the hook on EU fisheries law

- Eight EU countries, however, only made it on to the "flawed democracies" list. - A quote from one of your links. The UK is ranked 23rd, but this is because the low turnout is taken to be a problem. This is to completely fail to understand ‘the problem’. What about the (20% worse) turnout to MEP elections! It is the mind numbingly boring headlines and depressing articles that is a problem. Few will read them. (I enjoyed some. Thank you).

We all want a united Europe. United in what way? Cost is important:
Luxembourg Presidency - European Union budget
Less than 1% of GNI. Should be too! (Less than 1% GDP too? I suppose so.)

Thank you for your interesting and informed reply Slartibartfas. I am out again soon, but will look in. Sorry for my erratic attendance. What do Americans think of Europe?

Slartibartfas

I agree that its a hardly known fact that the Council of Europe that runs the European court of Human Rights, has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

Principally its clear who is responsible in case you just follow a simple rule. If the European Court of Justice acts, its the EU. That will be at the majority of all issues. When it comes to human rights issues though, and you hear about the European Court of Human Rights, its the Council of Europe, an international organisation (completely independant from the EU) where all European countries are members of, except Belarus.

The problem is not so much to keep oneself informed about national issues in the other memberstates. We have enough German quality papers with a very good objective coverage of them. The problem are the European issues. They dont find there way into many papers as it would be necessary and proportional to their importance. Even though I have to say that things are getting better in Austria at least. For example the conservative quality paper "Die Presse" has an own correspondent in Brussels and dedicates a whole page each day for European issues exclusively. (Located between the Austria and foreign politics sections).
But if you want to read about issues that have an impact on a European level, just read one of the links I gave you above. The "cafe babel" page even is a good possibility to see national issues in member states from the internal perspective.

I strongly disagree, but I guess that lies in the nature of our discussion
After all, already the economic union alone we established in Europe, is in many parts dependant on the political union. The single market would be significantly harmed if it should become ungovernable due to a dismantlement of the EU. After all, its not just a normal free trade zone. In the end its all about efficiency. International cooperations (bilateral) are terribly inefficient and extremely slow and hard to establish. The EU lies in between this and the way it works inside of a state. And we have already entered cooperation on so many important fields, from science/education, to certain foreign policy actions, single market issues, environmental issues etc that an international organisations structure would simply break down below the huge load and pressure caused by this immense fields of issues.

And there is a simple point why we need very far going European cooperations. Any European country can not do much anymore in a globalized world. Mulitnational companies laugh at our states, as they often have comparable turnovers like our states have BSPs. Countries like Russia, are enthusiastic as no single state has the power to tell them anything of much concern to them (just read the news, its Putins greatest joy to see Europe quarreling with itself instead of joining up forces). And if you want a proof, just look at issues that are already effectively united. Look for example at the anti trust policy. Its an EU competence, and it works. Many of the largest of the large companies have already burned their fingers as they thought they could fool around in Europe and have nothing to fear.

Foreign languages are a key indeed. Already now a majority of EU citizens speaks at least two languages, 19% even speak three or so. The EU puts much effort to foster the interest for foreign languages in Europe, and its official goal is to make Europeans trilingual in the long term. This will however take time, much time. You probably understand that.


Thats a pitty, see the arguments above. Moreover we Europeans have so much that connects us. Britains might have conserved their island perspective though as it seems. To master the future, we simply will be forced to either work together, or we will simply perish in the stormy sees of the global developements.


I have to admit, I am not so much into the fishery issue either. It probably is the nature of the member state I come from. There is no sea around here. But I have heard that Britons see it as a major issue at least from the range of potential European issues. My position is that a common fishery policy is very important. At best there would be a global policy on this, but as this hardly is reachable, a European is a very necessary first step. And as we see already that one is difficult enough.
I appreciate it very much that you really bothered to look at least at the links I posted. The problem with all objective news might be that they are considered to be "boring". I personally prefer boring news that give me the chance of getting a glimpse of the real picture instead of exagerated, blurred exciting stories about some fairy tailes or horror stories.

WRT MEP elections. I fear especially Britons but many others in Europe still have not realized what went on in the last decade regarding the European Parliament. Today we are not talking about a completely powerless hot steam talk factory. An argument that is still used among many sceptics. The Parliament has fought itself into a position where it is now the large second pillar of legislation on more than 75% of all possible issues. Especially in the last years you could increasingly reckognize how the Parliament grew up. How it started to rebell and point at its rights granted by the treaties. The Council of ministers and the Commission are in no position anymore to ignore the Parliament any longer, as the Parliament got teeth. And the Parliament is elected by all EU citizens, whereas it does matter if there is a conservative or a left majority there.
Sure that everyone wants a "united Europe"? Some might even reject that very vague idea already. WRT the budget, I see it from an European perspective, how can it be used to bring the max benefit for us all. An exaggerated nationalistic perspective on this is in fact not only a disadvantage for the other but also falls back indirectly to your own nation. There are many things that would need to be reformed regarding the budget and its structures. One detail for example is that I can't understand how the member states can demand to cut back EU expenditures for research and science issues. And I hope the European Parliament can still change that aspect.
No problem, I enjoy talking with an open minded British sceptic. Just tell me though, if my responds are too massive in their extends.

And I can only join your question: What think Americans about it?

Zebra

I do not think I have an island mentality any more than an Austrian might have a mainland obsession. I hope we are free of both. You seem to suggest I should be more interested in Europe than (for example) North America. Perhaps because I am in Europe? ‘You and I catch cold if our US brother sneezes’ holds some truth. What happens in the US affects my life as much as European events.

Why exactly should you and I be especially interested in Europe?

As you point out, we need to keep ourselves informed of European issues. Why? There is no democracy in Europe. My Eurovote is so much trash. What can I do about it? I speak English and that is the world in which I live. Mein Deutsch ist schlecht. Je ne parle pas francais bien. I might get into a hotel okay, but do not ask me about what Euro issues affect Germany France and the UK.

The difference between you and I may be that you see the good that the European Commission (whatever that is) does. You may know what European legislation is passed and what effect it has on European business. I know little of that. I will take your advice and find some time to read what you have suggested above. (Café babel and the other links). Maybe this will bring our views closer. Until then, I still suspect that European unity is a process impeded rather than aided by the Parliament and federal structures.

In short: I am looking for a process and multi-lateral (rather than bi-lateral) agreements. I regard a common language as a necessary first step. You see a more federal future, with more institutions and EU rules? So the different cultures and languages seem less of a hindrance to you? To ‘unity’ I mean.

What is this unity? It is a process and a matter of degree surely. It is not something we lack that we will one day attain.

Your simple rule that starts ‘Principally its clear who is responsible in case you just follow a simple rule’. That’s one problem with the EU. That is one of the simple rules! I like ‘one person one vote’.

You describe my vision of Europe as ‘a pity’. I do not see how it clashes with the points you make about globalisation and the small markets individual states represent for international corporations and investors. Here our difference is obvious (and particularly interesting). You say the economic union ‘is in many parts dependant on the political union’. Can you name one way they are co-dependent; and then say why we need a European Parliament or Commission for that linkage? We need negotiators who can agree a common set of rules or standards. We accept the metric system. I do not mind that instructions for electrical appliances are in symbols, not words. We can agree accounting practices and trade tariffs, or absence of them.

Zebra

Sorry I have just seen you have added something. Thank you for your patience with my admitted lack of knowledge of Euro affairs. I hope to come back to this at the w/e. It is the teeth you mention that may be Europe's downfall. There is not really 'unity in diversity' I think? I need to get my reading specks out!