Right before the announcement of the EU progress report, a survey made in 14 big cities in Turkey has shown that % 60 of the population wants the Turkish Government to suspend its relations with the European Union.

SABAH Newspaper English Edition - National - "Relations with the EU must be suspended"

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I read it also from a turkish source and I wanna add that also %22 said no opinion, his support only %18.
Well, I don't like erdogan and his goverment but our secular system is too strict and it could be a bit more elastic and must cover bigger persantage of our ppl. So he represented a portion of our ppl (even most of us don't like it) and we have an idea about their thoughs and for the measures to gain those ppl. It was also a test for our secular system, even a party from islamic roots couldn't damage our secularism. They came with democratic ways, they are losing votes with democratic ways and they will go with democratic ways.

No, there are more than one factor, the one you mentioned is only the last one, they gave a lot of politic and economic promises but didn't keep anyone of them and further more now they are telling that verbal promises can not be taken serious. they requires criterias which weren't required for other candidates, they are making discriminations and oppressions on European Turks such as , 3 turkish origined deputy candidate removed from lists of their parties just because they didn't admit armenian genocide in Holland , some german schools baned talking turkish in the classes and yards while germany put pressure on Turkey as saying if there are assimilated kurds who can't speak kurdish, Turkey should teach them kurdish , Greek state don't permit turkish minority identify themselves as turks or use the word "Turk" on their organizations and institutes and call them as "greek muslims" while they are coming from turkish families and speaking turkish, they shut down a lot of organization, jailed some ppl just because of this, oppps I can count more and more and these ppl are giving us the Human Rights lessons. So, that process become an insult and humiliation contest against Turks. Suspending it now is the best way, otherwise we will become enemy at the end of the day.

Washington-Athens tension over 'Turks in northern Thrace' statement

Turkey Suspends French Military Contacts

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No, there are more than one factor, the one you mentioned is only the last one, they gave a lot of politic and economic promises but didn't keep anyone , some german schools baned talking turkish in the classes and yards while germany put pressure on Turkey as saying if there are assimilated kurds who can't speak kurdish, Turkey should teach them kurdish






I don´t know about Greece or the Netherlands but here I happen to be informed. This was totally overblown and wrongly presented by the turkish media. We are talking about only a couple of schools in Berlin neighbourhoods with many migrants or people of migrant descent. Russians, Turks, Vietnamese, Arabs etc. etc.. These schools decided to start a campaign to only use german while in school to kind of force the students to communicate with each other. Russian, Arabic and other languages were also concerned, not only turkish. One of the major obstacles for migrant children to get a good education and good jobs which means they can actually start an integration process are bad language skills. The effect of young people speaking turkish at home, with their friends and family and german with actually nobody except their teachers has been studied again and again. A lot end up with bad marks , break up school and have few chances in life. Also it is definitely not in these people´s or in anybodys interest if paralell societies develop like this. The key is the language.
And you´re not seriously calling it discrimination if Germany insists that classes must be held in german ?

Mmm, I can guess why did they require it , I studied at naval military secondary school for two years, it was forbiden to talk turkish in the floor of classrooms and inside of classroom, we would speak only english or sometimes russian according to classes, because they required us to speak these languages fluent.
But as you can see, it is up to your view, you can also comment it as discimination if you want so. Thats exact attitude of EU for kurdish issues in Turkey.

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I found this story about Turkey and the Kurds and thought I would get some thoughts.

BTW--Public nemy--I like your signature--my grandfather use to say, "when you teach pigs to dance, you waste your time and piss off the pig". His point was when you try to educate the people on things they already have an opinion on is a monumental waste of time. lol Just thought I would share that with you.

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TRUTH exist, only a falsehood has to be invented.

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Well it has become common knowledge that our integration concept has not completely , but at least partially failed. Basically because there was none.
One reason was once excellently put by the swiss writer Max Frisch : " We wanted guest workers and they turned out to be human beeings."
When the migration of guest workers from Turkey and other countries into Western Germany started in the fifties nobody thought they would stay. Most turkish workers only intended to stay for a couple of years to make money and so the Germans did not make any effort to integrate them. On the german side the point was that many young men in their productive age were missing due to WW II , the economy went full steam ahead, the economic "miracle" began to take shape and that there were not enough hands to do all , especially the unskilled work. But then two or three became ten or twenty years, the children grew and knew Turkey only as the country where to spend their holidays and so many decided to stay.
It also must be noted that a lot of these migrant workers came from rural and economically backward areas in Turkey , often eastern Anatolia ,often with little education , and in many cases the experience to be suddenly thrown into a totally different culture with also at least partially differing values was almost too much. The Turks in Germany often settled down in relatively closed communities , were speaking Turkish with each other and especially the first generation was and is often hardly able to understand more German then necessary at work. Racism by Germans definitely contributed to this development , for example people who wouldnt rent their flat to Turks , but mostly this was a voluntary decision, to be with the people you could understand , and who could grasp how you felt among the Germans with their harsh sounding language and their strange customs. Then turkish shops , supermarkets, cafes , banks, travel agencies etc. started to develop around these quarters and the Turks were definitely living besides and not among the Germans. The most famous such quarter is Kreuzberg in Berlin, which is said to be the largest turkish city after Ankara and of course Istanbul.
It´s not that all children or grandchildren of former guest workers were poor and living in parallel societies, a turkish- german middle class has developed over the years which often votes conservative , there are MP´s of turkish origin , business people and a former advisor to chancellor Schröder ,Vural Öger, who came as a guest worker with a suitcase full of things and now owns an airline and many other enterprises.
But still too many young Turks are stuck in these closed communities which were built by their parents or grandparents. We have the strange situation of people born and grown up in Germany who are hardly able to express to a doctor where it hurts for example. These will end up as school break- ups and pass their few perspectives in life on to the next generation.
That is why to discriminate them to the extent to actually have to learn the language of the country they are living in means to equip them with the tool they need to make their way in german society. It means the Turks have finally arrived in germans public conscience.....

Well, I also wanna post headlines about Turkey on this Thread instead of filling the forum with many diffrent threads about Turkey.

JTW News - Democrat Howard Dean: The US is Responsible for Increasing PKK Terrorism

The New Anatolian - Turkish Jews, Muslims commemorate victims of 2003 synagogue bombings

Diaspora Armenians Are In Continuous Contact With PKK Terrorist Organization, Egilmez

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Voland, I think you couldn't get the irony in my post anyway, thanks for informatic review about Turks in Germany, or Turks in Europe in general, I just want to add some points.
If turks lives together apart from germans with in Germany, it is also related with germans' attitute towards turks. They didn't welcomed Turks, They didn't like and accept turk's culture, religion etc.. they didn't permit any influence from turkish culture, lifestyle to their social life and Turks deny german culture and lifestyle in return. (this is a characteristic of turks, if we sense a non-friendly action or attitude, we never try to change it, just give reaction with the same, just like current Turkey-EU relations) Well, integration without any little interaction or if it works one sided it means total asimilation. And trying to asimilate ppl totally without any interaction from deep, historic and diffrent cultures like Turks, Japans, Chinese, Persians are very very difficult. I have many friends in both EU states and USA, and the ones in the USA never exprience such difficulties. Nobody deny or exclude them. Ofcourse ppl profils are so diffrent in general if we compare turks in germany or in usa but it is just one factor.
And when it comes to second or third generations, it becomes dramatic, because they are neither belong to german nor turkish culture, they are belong to getto culture created in such places like kruzberg and they are trapped in there. And this keeps kruzberg alike gettos alive.

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THere was a point when a similar thingoccured in the US. THat would be the Native American; at a point they were not citizens, could not speak their lang outside rezs, their culture was supposed and still is to a certain. In other words, white Americans wanted them isolated and supressed.

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I apologize if I didn´t get the irony in your previous post. Germans are the most unironic people in the world. I come across that in Luxembourg every day.
I think i already pointed out that racist prejudices on the german part were one important factor which contributed to the situation. But integration is always a two -way street. So neither side is without blame.