Voland

Against the expressed wishes of the italian governement a judge in the northern italian city of Milano is holding hearings today on wether to formally bring 26 american and five italian secret agents on trial for the kidnapping of a terror suspectin Italy in February 2003. The trial could become embarassing for both governements since eveidence is apparently overhelming. The subject dissappeared in a egyptian prison by the way and was never heard of again...

Milan's Extraordinary Renditions Case: The CIA in the Dock - International - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News

Tumbleweed

The tactics sound familiar. Considering they do it to people here I'm not surprised they would do it in a foreign country. They usually show up later though.

Slartibartfas

Excerpt from the Spiegel:

So in plain English the US wants Italy to adopt a tailor made law to undermine the Italian justice...
Or to stop the trial before it even begins with any other possible methode.

Slartibartfas

The irony of this whole case is somehow that the CIA agents did not expected the possibility that an Italian judge will "X-ray" them. They probably did not knew that the justice system in Italy is a very tough one where its people sometimes are immune to pressure from any side. I mean, hey they know the Mafia, if you have fought trials against Mafia grands, do you really think you still fear the CIA, Washington or the Italian government?


I sincerely hope that this judge will have the courage like some before him in their cases against the Mafia. And that he does not bow in front of the dirty methods both governments may use against him to silence him.

I'd wish that justice might succeed just one single time. Even though the next line already reveal that the Italian minister did NOT further this warrant to the EU. And all this in the name of the land of the "free" and the "protectors of democracy and human rights"; of the US.

I want to close my post with these words. Perhaps I should write them down somewhere:

Slartibartfas

Has this CIA man lost every sense of reality? His laywer told the court the CIA official she defends does not accept that court as it lacks the legitimica and competence to lead such trial?

Is this man insane??? US agents kidnap an Italian citizen in Italy and the Italian court should be not competent to care about it?

Brother Oz

The US really dislike having their citizens tried by foreign courts, I think they consider all foreigners to be too incompetent to try Americans on principle.

__________________
... I am surprised at your insolence in writing to me at all. You know, as I know, that I bought this constituency... may God's curse light upon you and may it make your women as open and as free to the excise officers as your wives and daughters have always been to me while I have represented your scoundrel corporation.
I have the honour to be... your obliged humble servant, Anthony Henley
- MPs reply to constituent, mid 1700s

Slartibartfas

Well, then they should not leave their country anymore....

No seriously, what you describe is a really weird view if someone has it. Americans do not stand above law. They have not invented law either. And most importantly, there are also states under the rule of law in other places of the world too.

Callery

It would shock me if they were ever tried because of problems that would be incurred in obtaining extradition. The Italian-American extradition treaty requires that extradition be negotiated through diplomatic channels, not the judge or prosecutors. Seeing as the Italian government is opposed to trying these agents it is doubtful that the government will seek the extradition. Additionally, if the Italian government does seek extradition there is a clause in the treaty that would allow the United States to refuse if the offence is a "political offence". I'm not sure how far the political offence clause extends, but I think that the current administration would use any means at hand to keep from turning over its agents.

Slartibartfas

No bilateral US-Italy treaty could ever stand above the Italian the Italian constitution. Nor will it overtrump Italian law.

The law is on the side of the justice branch. What Americans demand is that Italian politicians brutally interfere in their own constitutional seperation of power. Thats weird. Americans undermining a western democracy, is that really what you want?


Even if you already succeeded in threatening and buying in the Italian governmnet. The court does not need the CIA agents to start the trial. And it already now seems to have digged out enough dirt to cause a major PR desaster for the US. As soon as the trial is started the pressure on the US will explode. Not that I think that America would give in, but it would be a global PR desaster for the US destroying the little rest of credibility left. It will btw also hit the Italian intelligence hardly.

But the justice system of Italy would have proven again that it does not fear unconstitutional intermeddling of the government in its own affairs.

Callery

I am sure that you know much more about the Italian judicial system than I do, (the American school system is criminally negligent when teaching about other nations) but as I understand it, the court is not able to request that these agents are extradited to Italy, I believe, and I could be wrong, that it is Italian law that a court cannot, on it's own, request extradition. I would agree with you that the American Government most defiantly should turn the agents over if Italy would request it; I really just don't believe they would. Furthermore I think little would be accomplished by trying the agents in absentia, I think it is apparent that, by the majority of the worlds standards, this kind of operation is unacceptable and I think that it is also apparent that the Italian judiciary does not approve of this type of operation. I think that a trial without the agents would be pointlessly symbolic at best and a shame at worst.