THE answer to our energy problems. - Political Forum

SmilingBandit · 10-25-2006, 07:58 PM

To begin, let me say that I know that the title of my post may seem a little presumptuous. I'm sure you have all heard several "magic bullet" ideas on how to solve our nations energy crisis. Well this one has teeth and I am going to run you through the details. After which I am drafting a letter of which I will mail to EVERY Senator and Representative after the 2006 elections. I believe the monetary expendature (over $200 dollars in stamps alone) is worth it if I get the attention of at least a handful of representatives who can then carry the message to the people. I am posting this to seek feedback on the laymans' perceived viability of my solution. Note: This is NOT my idea, just one that I have come across in my studies...

To begin, lets look at what the challenges we face that have stoppped other great ideas in there tracks, as well as the current ideas...

The challenges facing alternative energies come mainly from the transportation sector. Roughly two-thirds of U.S energy consumption occurs in the form of transportation. As such the following challenges face any alternative energy...

Transportation/Distribution - We need to be able to get the fuel into the hands of the consumer.
Engine Technology - Any proposed solution needs to work within the framework of existing proven engine technology.
Energy - If we spend more energy getting at the fuel than we get back using it, its not a viable solution.
Availability - The suggested fuel needs to be able to be produced in sufficient quantities domestically. The reason we see current price fluctuations and unpopular wars can be directly traced to the fact we don't produce our energy locally.
Economy - A solution that costs triple the current system to implement and run will never compete.
Environmental Impact - Self explanitory.

Now that we have the basic challenges down, lets look at some proposed solutions...

Hydrogen - This solution breaks down on almost every category.
- There is no transportation or distribution network.
- In order to produce Hydrogen, you need hydrocarbons or electricity and water.
- Production in sufficient quantities would require massive amounts of either electricity or hydrocarbons.
- This all taken together invariably suggests a price point well above petroleum.
- Finally, the huge amounts of energy required to produce Hydrogen from water means that we are just shifting the environmental impact up the line, so to speak.
- The only bright sides to Hydrogen is that current engine technology would work fine with Hydrogen as a fuel.
Ethanol - Ethanol has three main downsides as a transportation energy choice.
- Like Hydrogen, the energy expended in producing the fuel is poor in comparison to the energy released when utilizing the fuel.
- Production of Ethanol requires farmland. Land that would normally be used for food. When and if cellulosic ethanol takes off, this won't be such a concern. But as it stands now, we would have to devote cropland to fuel production, too much cropland to replace our transportation fuel needs.
- Finally, the environmental impact is one that I believe has been largely overlooked in the proposal of the Ethanol solution. As a homebrewer I can tell you fermentation produces alot of two things...alcohol and CO2. This before you even burn the ethanol.
- On the Transportation/Distribution, Engine Technology, and Economy, Ethanol is feasable, just not a good idea IMHO.
Electricity - Electricity as a transportation fuel is not really viable without a replacement fuel source. Unless you are talking about solar powered cars which, with exisiting solar cell efficiencies, are completely infeasable. The electricity is just acting as a storage mechanism for the fuel burned to produced the electricty. Yes I know about industrial sized solar, wind, wave, geothermal, and all the other non-polluting industrial sources. However, the realities of economy and NIMBY politics makes it unlikely that theses alternative energy sources will take over for coal anytime in the near future. Especially, if you put the increased demand of transportation on the electrical grid.

So finally we get to my solution. That which will free us from our dependance upon those who would do us harm. An end to the open carbon cycle that pumps billions of metric tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. An end to fluctuating gas prices and foreign wars for foreign oil. The answer is...biodiesel.

Now I know some of you are feeling cheated right now having read through this entire post only to have me tell you about something you already knew about. But there is a twist. This isn't just any ordinary biodiesel, this is algal biodiesel.

Algal Biodiesel is created by taking wastewater streams, waste CO2 from electricity plants (or the atmosphere), and sunlight to grow algae. The algae is then pressed to extract the oil (some species of algae are over 50% oil by weight). This oil is then either burned directly (in warm weather climates) or processed into biodiesl (for cold weather climates). The beauty of this system compared to using food oils (corn, rapeseed, palm kernal) is that no arable land is utilized. In fact, algal farms do best in desert environments that receive the highest days of sunshine. (Thats not saying you have to produce it in deserts). Not only are we not taking up cropland, but if you look at the production numbers, algae is the only oil stock that makes sense.

I refer you to the following bit of research by Michael Briggs, PhD. at the University of New Hampshire. It is here that I got my initial introduction to this idea.
http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html
It is from this article that I will be drawing my numbers from for the letter to our representatives. It is a very interesting read that just made me think that there is a better way and I need to let my leaders know about it. Tell me what you think, and I shall take it all into consideration. Thanks.

-The SmilingBandit strikes again !!-

hawkeagle · 10-30-2006, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SmilingBandit

To begin, let me say that I know that the title of my post may seem a little presumptuous. I'm sure you have all heard several "magic bullet" ideas on how to solve our nations energy crisis. Well this one has teeth and I am going to run you through the details. After which I am drafting a letter of which I will mail to EVERY Senator and Representative after the 2006 elections. I believe the monetary expendature (over $200 dollars in stamps alone) is worth it if I get the attention of at least a handful of representatives who can then carry the message to the people. I am posting this to seek feedback on the laymans' perceived viability of my solution. Note: This is NOT my idea, just one that I have come across in my studies...

To begin, lets look at what the challenges we face that have stoppped other great ideas in there tracks, as well as the current ideas...

The challenges facing alternative energies come mainly from the transportation sector. Roughly two-thirds of U.S energy consumption occurs in the form of transportation. As such the following challenges face any alternative energy...

Transportation/Distribution - We need to be able to get the fuel into the hands of the consumer.
Engine Technology - Any proposed solution needs to work within the framework of existing proven engine technology.
Energy - If we spend more energy getting at the fuel than we get back using it, its not a viable solution.
Availability - The suggested fuel needs to be able to be produced in sufficient quantities domestically. The reason we see current price fluctuations and unpopular wars can be directly traced to the fact we don't produce our energy locally.
Economy - A solution that costs triple the current system to implement and run will never compete.
Environmental Impact - Self explanitory.

Now that we have the basic challenges down, lets look at some proposed solutions...

Hydrogen - This solution breaks down on almost every category.
- There is no transportation or distribution network.
- In order to produce Hydrogen, you need hydrocarbons or electricity and water.
- Production in sufficient quantities would require massive amounts of either electricity or hydrocarbons.
- This all taken together invariably suggests a price point well above petroleum.
- Finally, the huge amounts of energy required to produce Hydrogen from water means that we are just shifting the environmental impact up the line, so to speak.
- The only bright sides to Hydrogen is that current engine technology would work fine with Hydrogen as a fuel.
Ethanol - Ethanol has three main downsides as a transportation energy choice.
- Like Hydrogen, the energy expended in producing the fuel is poor in comparison to the energy released when utilizing the fuel.
- Production of Ethanol requires farmland. Land that would normally be used for food. When and if cellulosic ethanol takes off, this won't be such a concern. But as it stands now, we would have to devote cropland to fuel production, too much cropland to replace our transportation fuel needs.
- Finally, the environmental impact is one that I believe has been largely overlooked in the proposal of the Ethanol solution. As a homebrewer I can tell you fermentation produces alot of two things...alcohol and CO2. This before you even burn the ethanol.
- On the Transportation/Distribution, Engine Technology, and Economy, Ethanol is feasable, just not a good idea IMHO.
Electricity - Electricity as a transportation fuel is not really viable without a replacement fuel source. Unless you are talking about solar powered cars which, with exisiting solar cell efficiencies, are completely infeasable. The electricity is just acting as a storage mechanism for the fuel burned to produced the electricty. Yes I know about industrial sized solar, wind, wave, geothermal, and all the other non-polluting industrial sources. However, the realities of economy and NIMBY politics makes it unlikely that theses alternative energy sources will take over for coal anytime in the near future. Especially, if you put the increased demand of transportation on the electrical grid.

So finally we get to my solution. That which will free us from our dependance upon those who would do us harm. An end to the open carbon cycle that pumps billions of metric tonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere every year. An end to fluctuating gas prices and foreign wars for foreign oil. The answer is...biodiesel.

Now I know some of you are feeling cheated right now having read through this entire post only to have me tell you about something you already knew about. But there is a twist. This isn't just any ordinary biodiesel, this is algal biodiesel.

Algal Biodiesel is created by taking wastewater streams, waste CO2 from electricity plants (or the atmosphere), and sunlight to grow algae. The algae is then pressed to extract the oil (some species of algae are over 50% oil by weight). This oil is then either burned directly (in warm weather climates) or processed into biodiesl (for cold weather climates). The beauty of this system compared to using food oils (corn, rapeseed, palm kernal) is that no arable land is utilized. In fact, algal farms do best in desert environments that receive the highest days of sunshine. (Thats not saying you have to produce it in deserts). Not only are we not taking up cropland, but if you look at the production numbers, algae is the only oil stock that makes sense.

I refer you to the following bit of research by Michael Briggs, PhD. at the University of New Hampshire. It is here that I got my initial introduction to this idea.
UNH Biodiesel Group
It is from this article that I will be drawing my numbers from for the letter to our representatives. It is a very interesting read that just made me think that there is a better way and I need to let my leaders know about it. Tell me what you think, and I shall take it all into consideration. Thanks.

-The SmilingBandit strikes again !!-

Sounds great where can we buy the shares!

Slartibartfas · 10-31-2006, 06:30 PM

Smiling Bandit, a warm welcome at this board, first of all.

The concept of production of algal bio diesel sounds interesting. As I am a very strong supporter of any meassure that helps reaching a sustainable economy, I also am very much in favor of giving research of possible technologies that could help us in this regard the financial help it needs.

The concept you have outlined here sounds reasonable enough to get a financial background to continue their work or better expand it. But we have to be aware that its just a single technology out of many possibly used to produce bio diesel. And bio diesel being just one out of many possible secondary energies of the future.

Regarding your specific proposal everything stands and falls with the efficiency of energy transformation. And how is compared to the other ways to produce bio diesel. I am not sure how this really looks like, perhaps even the authors of the paper do not really do so. But as I have said above, this should be subject of further research.

Some points of critique thoughts I might add though:
The switching from gasoline to ethanol for example is not that much of a problem. Just look at Brazil or currently especially at Sweden. (Sweden might be interesting, they have long term plans to base their ethanol production on their vast forests)
The technology for ethanol in automobiles is already a mature one. Ethanol even has some very good advantages in comparison to more traditional fuels.

I am not sure, but algaes need much water to grow, don't they? If you should really try to use them for large scale purposes this would lead to enormous dimensions, wouldn't it? A problem that should not be underestimated.

How much experience do we already have in cultivating algaes? I really don#t know, but its also an essential question.

Long speech short: Everything stands and falls with the energy balance of the technology.

Slartibartfas · 10-31-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I could use a little more explanation here. I understand that algae converts energy from the sun (as all plants do) and then secretes something we can use as "biodiesel." However, I am a little confused on the details there. What does it secrete? How much of it, how easy is it to collect, and is there any difficulty in maintaining the algae stocks?

Very good points WEB.
I am not sure the authors of the paper the link leads to know the answer to all of this questions already. Thats actually why further research would be needed to be carried out. Of course that needs an appropriate financing. The state has at least from my perspective an obligation to take care of that.

Principally I remain critical, but this technology could perhaps have potential. One will see.

WRT your questions. I guess it will be oils those algaes produce in high amounts themselves. You would have to harvest the algaes and then probably a traditional process of oil extraction would be applicable. It seems the authors consider that oil already good enough to be used as fuel. But in case it should be not, nothing speaks out against possible further refineration steps. In case it makes sense according to the energy balance of course.

USViking · 11-02-2006, 03:59 PM

The US has over 1.5 trillion barrels petroleum reserves
in shale rock, and Canada has close to the same amount
in tar sands. (Saudi crude oil reserves are approx. 260 billion)

If the price of crude oil gets up over $80 and stays there,
then it will be economically feasible to use the oil shale and sand.

OPEC could probably make plenty of money at $50 per barrel,
so they will manipulate the market if need be to prevent
competition from sources other than crude oil. Also, a lot of
investors got burned by shale oil specualtion several decades
ago, and people might still be skittish about risking thier money.

I do not know any details, but here are bound to be environmental
issues with oil shale and sand extraction and refining.

It would be nice if something as apparently cheap and clean
as hydrogen could be developed as an alternative.

Coyote Says · 11-02-2006, 04:34 PM

I read the article, but not the PDF's. If the author is right, it wouldn't require much space to produce all the biodiesel we need. I like it.

Slartibartfas · 11-03-2006, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by USViking

The US has over 1.5 trillion barrels petroleum reserves
in shale rock, and Canada has close to the same amount
in tar sands. (Saudi crude oil reserves are approx. 260 billion)

If the price of crude oil gets up over $80 and stays there,
then it will be economically feasible to use the oil shale and sand.

OPEC could probably make plenty of money at $50 per barrel,
so they will manipulate the market if need be to prevent
competition from sources other than crude oil. Also, a lot of
investors got burned by shale oil specualtion several decades
ago, and people might still be skittish about risking thier money.

I do not know any details, but here are bound to be environmental
issues with oil shale and sand extraction and refining.

It would be nice if something as apparently cheap and clean
as hydrogen could be developed as an alternative.

Yes that would be an interesting issue too.

I really dont know too much about oil shale and sand. I only heard that they are not unproblematic as oil source, both economically and most importantly also not environmentally.