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Old 11-27-2007, 05:21 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Black women outnumber black men in college

Stories on the news last night said over 65% of blacks in higher education are women. Should there be a new affirmative action movement to balance this problem of diversity? Should there be fewer scholarships going to black women? If the test scores are equal between a black man and a black woman, should the slot go to the man?
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Old 11-27-2007, 05:26 PM   #2 (permalink)
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No. There are more white women in college then there is white men too. The difference is more like 58% rather then 15%, but it's significant all the same.
So diversity is the most important thing, right? So should there not be the same restrictions put on white women too?
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Old 11-27-2007, 06:36 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Aren't you against AA? Is this supposed to be an argument against it? All I'm saying is there is no point in taking further action because there is little chance that it will have much of an effect on the entry rates.
Being absurd to point out absurdity.
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Old 11-27-2007, 09:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i was never much for affirmative action maybe the women are just more motivation
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Old 11-27-2007, 11:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I applaud the approach taken in this post to show how absurd affirmative action really is.

When colleges talk about "Diversity" they really mean "Less Whites". Claiming that a student body should be considered "diverse" purely in racial terms is absurd.

If the goal really was diversity, Universities would actively try to get students from all around the country, of different religions, etc. over just of different races. But alas, "Diverse" means of different races to them.

Last edited by Caltex; 11-27-2007 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:12 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Should there be a new affirmative action movement to balance this problem of diversity?
It has already been stated that AA is not about "diversity", but forced "equality". But I very much appreciate the spirit and message of your post. I agree with neorealist that the programs should be phased out eventually as they feed a negative stereotype.

And I feel a bit of pride and accomplishment that black women are making their mark, going after what they need to make it on their own. That is what needs to happen across the board.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:33 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Women are more dominent ungrad, but in hard sciences, CompSci at the grad level, as well as poli sci, econ it is still majority men and majority white and Asian.
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Old 11-28-2007, 09:46 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The purpose of AA was not originally to promote diversity, but to mitigate both overt and discreet forms of discrimination past and present. However one of the reasons why universities and businesses have diversity programs is because it has been proven to effect productivity in a positive way. Tell me, the fact that Universities have diversity programs clearly bothers you, do you fill the same way about Universities choosing students on the basis of athletic abilities or heredity?
I feel that identifying and accepting students purely on racial terms promotes racism, because it is in fact racism of a different kind itself. Choosing one student over another, because of their race is discrimination. It is no better then turning down a student because of their race.

I feel strongly about this subject, because my university is always blabbering about "diversity". They saw a drop in Black, Asian, and White student enrollment, and a small rise in Hispanic enrollment, and haven't stopped the press releases about how "diversity" is increasing and how great it is. Forget that the student boy is no more diverse then it was before, it just has less Blacks, Asians and Whites, and more Hispanics. 90%+ of the students are still from the state of Texas, from the same areas. Yeah that's real diverse, oh wait, it's "diverse" because of different races.

Heredity isn't a valid reason to get a spot over anyone else, unless the parent is a big donor to the college and there are monetary reasons to allow their offspring in. If they can lower tuitions for all, or at least not raise them, even if it costs a few spots, it's better for the whole student body. The same argument goes for sports programs that make lots of money like football.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:38 AM   #9 (permalink)
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The truth is America has never been and is not a meritocracy anyone who thinks that really doesn't understand how this nation works, not in hiring, promotion, or school acceptance historically or now.

Some should read this:

You should read this:

At the elite colleges - dim white kids - The Boston Globe

I was also reading an article a few months ago, how sense Cali got rid of Affirmative Action, whites have lost even more seats in state schools to Asians, especially the elite schools.

Now that Berkley is almost 50% Asian in a state that is not even 10% Asian and Tommy and Janice can't get a seat into the university their parents feel they deserve white parents are talking about "changing" the system again. LOL

SATs were created partly due to the fact that Jews, Catholics and others were historically discriminated against at top schools, this equaled the playing field somewhat (not for blacks though).

'The Chosen' tells story of Ivy League exclusion - Jewish News of Greater Phoenix

I work in the real world, and have for 10 years, I can tell you that in most industries who gets promoted has little to do with who is the "smartest" or who knows the most, etc.

It is about who has connections and who is liked the most. Yes you need a minimum level of competence, but reality is at a certain level, most people are competent, then it comes down to other factors, usually resulting in favouritism. Ask anyone who has worked in corporate America 15 years or more. It is obvious that peopel favor those who remind them of themselves, so if it is a middle class white man, that is likely another middle class white man...it is human nature that people are not subjective when it comes to this type of thing, even if they aren't 'racist". Not that racism no longer exists, anyone who says that is an idiot, a liar, or mentally ill.

Diversity for the sake of diversity is stupid. As belladona said there is a purpose behind it more than just "feeling good about all the different folks in the room".

White males in America have had over 200 years of affirmative action, just for being white and having a penis.

So you can see it as, 200 years of white males having their foot on everyone else and effectively putting the minority/woman in a ditch. Then in 1965 or so, white males said..."well we are going to treat you equal because we decided that is teh right thing to do"...

Okay...so they take the foot off your neck and say "okay climb out of the ditch your damnself, that is fair, see we are all equal"

NO. Affirmative Action was to not only prevent or limit future discrimination but to make up for a 200 years headstart.

Before any idiot says something like "my family didn't own slaves"...well mine either, who gives a damn. I don't care if your family came here in 1920, it isn't about you.

What I do know is in 1960 or even 1970, if your father or grandfather was white, in many areas of the country (not just in the South) they got benefit just due to what they looked like, they were able to buy houses in certain areas if they had the money, they got benefit of the doubt in hiring, loans, etc. IT has been proven over and over again that blacks got screwed over in these things until quite recently, Hispanics too (the dark ones anyway) and Asians (I'm not talking about the educated middle class Asians who come here as a select group, I'm talking about the Asians who were here before, like in Hawaii where a good amount of the Pacific Islander population is poor, I'm talking about less advantaged Asians like Thais, Hmong, Viet who came here with no money or education and are still poor and backward).

What is fair is not always equal.

Reality is white males still control the majority of the economic and political power in this country so anyone who wants to cry a river about "what they didn't get" stand in a freaking line.
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Old 11-28-2007, 11:47 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Myth 1: The only way to create a color-blind society is to adopt color-blind policies.

Although this statement sounds intuitively plausible, the reality is that color-blind policies often put racial minorities at a disadvantage. For instance, all else being equal, color-blind seniority systems tend to protect White workers against job layoffs, because senior employees are usually White (Ezorsky, 1991). Likewise, color-blind college admissions favor White students because of their earlier educational advantages. Unless preexisting inequities are corrected or otherwise taken into account, color-blind policies do not correct racial injustice - they reinforce it.”

Myth 2: Affirmative action has not succeeded in increasing female and minority representation.

Several studies have documented important gains in racial and gender equality as a direct result of affirmative action (Bowen & Bok, 1998; Murrell & Jones, 1996). For example, according to a report from the U.S. Labor Department, affirmative action has helped 5 million minority members and 6 million white and minority women move up in the workforce (“Reverse Discrimination,” 1995). Likewise, a study sponsored by the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs showed that between 1974 and 1980 federal contractors (who were required to adopt affirmative action goals) added black and female officials and managers at twice the rate of non-contractors (Citizens’ Commission, 1984). There have also been a number of well-publicized cases in which large companies (e.g., AT&T, IBM, Sears Roebuck) increased minority employment as a result of adopting affirmative action policies.”










"Myth 3: Affirmative action may have been necessary 30 years ago, but the playing field is fairly level today.

Despite the progress that has been made, the playing field is far from level. Women continue to earn 76 cents for every male dollar (Bowler, 1999). Black people continue to have twice the unemployment rate of White people, twice the rate of infant mortality, and just over half the proportion of people who attend four years or more of college. In fact, without affirmative action the percentage of Black students at many selective schools would drop to only 2% of the student body (Bowen & Bok, 1998). This would effectively choke off Black access to top universities and severely restrict progress toward racial equality.”


“Myth 4: The public doesn’t support affirmative action anymore.

Public opinion polls suggest that the majority of Americans support affirmative action, especially when the polls avoid an all-or-none choice between affirmative action as it currents exists and no affirmative action whatsoever (see Table 1). For example, a Time/CNN poll found that 80% of the public felt that “affirmative action programs for minorities and women should be continued at some level” (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995a). What the public opposes are quotas, set-asides, and “reverse discrimination.” For instance, when the same poll asked people whether they favored programs “requiring businesses to hire a specific number or quota of minorities and women,” 63% opposed such a plan (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995b). As these results indicate, most members of the pubic oppose racial preferences that violate notions of procedural justice - they do not oppose affirmative action.”

“Myth 5: A large percentage of White workers will lose out if affirmative action is continued."

Government statistics do not support this myth. According to the U.S. Commerce Department there are 1.3 million unemployed Black civilians and 112 million employed White civilians (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 2000). Thus, even is every unemployed Black worker in the United States were to displace a White worker, only 1% of Whites would be affected. Furthermore, affirmative action pertains only to job-qualified applicants, so the actual percentage of affected Whites would be a fraction of 1%. The main sources of job loss among White workers have to do with factory relocations and labor contracting outside the United States, computerization and automation, and corporate downsizing (Ivins, 1995).

Myth 6: If Jewish people and Asian Americans can rapidly advance economically, African Americans should be able to do the same.

This comparison ignores the unique history of discrimination against Black people in America. As historian Roger Wilkins has pointed out, Blacks have a 375-year history on this continent: 245 involving slavery, 100 involving legalized discrimination, and only 30 involving anything else (Wilkins, 1995). Jews and Asians, on the other hand, are populations that immigrated to North America and included doctors, lawyers, professors and entrepreneurs among their ranks. Moreover, European Jews are able to function as part of the White majority. To expect Blacks to show the same upward mobility as Jews and Asians is to deny the historical and social reality that Black people face.

“Myth 7: You can’t cure discrimination with discrimination.

The problem with this myth is that it uses the same word - discrimination - to describe two very different things. Job discrimination is grounded in prejudice and exclusion, whereas affirmative action is an effort to overcome prejudicial treatment through inclusion. The most effective way to cure society of exclusionary practices is to make special efforts at inclusion, which is exactly what affirmative action does. The logic of affirmative action is no different than the logic of treating a nutritional deficiency with vitamin supplements. For a healthy person, high doses of vitamin supplements may be unnecessary or even harmful, but for a person whose system is out of balance, supplements are an efficient way to restore the body’s balance.

"Myth 8: Affirmative action tends to undermine the self-esteem of women and racial minorities."

Although affirmative action may have this effect in some cases (Heilman, Simon, & Repper, 1987: Steele, 1990), interview studies and public opinion surveys suggest that such reactions are rare (Taylor, 1994). For instance, a 1995 Gallup poll asked employed Blacks and employed White women whether they had ever felt others questioned their abilities because of affirmative action (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995d). Nearly 90% of respondents said no (which is understandable-after all, White men, who have traditionally benefited from preferential hiring, do not feel hampered by self-doubt or a loss in self-esteem). Indeed, in many cases affirmative action may actually raise the self-esteem of women and minorities by providing them with employment and opportunities for advancement. There is also evidence that affirmative action policies increase job satisfaction and organizational commitment among beneficiaries (Graves&Powell, 1994).


Myth 9: "Affirmative action is nothing more than an attempt at social engineering by liberal Democrats."

In truth, affirmative action programs have spanned nine different presidential administrations - six Republican and three Democratic. Although the originating document of affirmative action was President Lyndon Johnson's Executive Order 11246, the policy was significantly expanded in 1969 by President Richard Nixon and then Secretary of Labor George Schultz. President George Bush also enthusiastically signed the Civil Rights Act of 1991, which formally endorsed the principle of affirmative action. Thus, affirmative action has traditionally enjoyed the support of Republicans as well as Democrats.

Part 10

By Sue Nelmes
The following is the final myth in a series of articles about affirmative action. All are drawn from a chapter by Scott Plous, in a book entitled Understanding Prejudice and Discrimination.

“Myth 10: “Support for affirmative action means support for preferential selection procedures that favor unqualified candidates over qualified candidates.

Actually, most supporters of affirmative action oppose this type of preferential selection. Preferential selection procedures can be ordered along the following continuum:

1. Selection among equally qualified candidates. The mildest form of affirmative action selection occurs when a female or minority candidate is chosen from a pool of equally qualified applicants (e.g., students with identical college entrance scores). Survey research suggests that three-quarters of the public does not see this type of affirmative action as discriminatory (Roper Center for Public Opinion, 1995e).

2. Selection among comparable candidates. A somewhat stronger form occurs when female or minority candidates are roughly comparable to other candidates (e.g., their college entrance scores are lower, but not by a significant amount). The logic here is similar to the logic of selecting among equally qualified candidates; all that is needed is an understanding that, for example, predictions based on an SAT score of 620 are virtually indistinguishable from prediction based on an SAT score of 630.

3. Selection among unequal candidates. A still stronger form of affirmative action occurs when qualified female or minority candidates are chosen over candidates whose records are better by a substantial amount.

4. Selection among qualified and unqualified candidates. The strongest form of preferential selection occurs when unqualified female or minority members are chosen over other candidates who are qualified. Although affirmative action is sometimes mistakenly equated with this form of preferential treatment, federal regulations explicitly prohibit affirmative action programs in which unqualified or unneeded employees are hired (Bureau of National Affairs, 1979).

Even though these selection procedures occasionally blend into one another (due in part to the difficulty of comparing incommensurable records), a few general observations can be made. First, of the four different procedures, the selection of women and minority members among equal or roughly comparable candidates has the greatest public support, adheres most closely to popular conceptions of fairness, and reduces the chances that affirmative action beneficiaries will be perceived as unqualified or undeserving (Kravitz & Platania, 1993; Nacoste, 1985; Turner& Pratkanis, 1994). Second, the selection of women and minority members among unequal candidates - used routinely in college admissions - has deeply divided the nation (with the strongest opposition coming from white males and conservative voters.) And finally, the selection of unqualified candidates is not permitted under federal affirmative action guidelines and should not be equated with legal forms of affirmative action. By distinguishing among these four different selection procedures, it becomes clear that opposition to stronger selection procedures need not imply opposition to milder ones.
Some writers have criticized affirmative action as a superficial solution that does not address deeper societal problems by redistributing wealth and developing true educational equality. Yet affirmative action was never proposed as a cure-all solution to inequality. Rather, it was intended only to redress discrimination in hiring and academic admissions. In assessing the value of affirmative action, the central question is merely this: In the absence of sweeping societal reforms - unlikely to take place any time soon - does affirmative action help counteract the continuing injustice caused by discrimination? The research record suggests, unequivocally, that it does.


UnderstandingPrejudice.org: Ten Myths About Affirmative Action
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