Gays and the Church: If You're "Out" Why Does A Church Affiliation Matter? (Part 2) - Political Forum

Tim · 10-24-2007, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTaliAN_ICe

Does the church allow thieves to attend? What about liars? If so, they have to allow homosexuals, because all three are "sinners" in the church's eyes.

Yes, that is certainly true. But the point is, as you say, that "all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God". All of us - no exceptions.

Those who want to have homosexual behavior considered as normal are speaking a completely different language: the language of the current, relativized vocabulary. The Christian understanding of what life is has no realtion to this. That is why it is extraordinarily difficult to discuss this. The vocabulary of "rights" is the current generally accepted way of speaking and understanding life.

There is nothing in the Bible or in Christian teaching about "homosexuals" as a separate group of people. There are references to homosexual behavior which is assumed to be perverse - outside the norm. However, it is no worse than any other sinful behavior. There is no noun in the Bible for homosexual.

The idea that human beings can be defined primarily by their sexual behaviors and desires started with Freud, when the Christian understanding of the individual as created by God started to decline in the West. A new view of human beings as simply a higher form of animal, determined by instincts and drives and essentially amoral, increased in general acceptance. From there came the idea that homosexuals must be defined by their behavior - and now Christians are attacked as "Bigots" and "Gay-bashers" and "Filled with Hate" and all the usual far-left labels because we reject that whole way of viewing life.

The gulf between people on these issues - especially abortion and homosexuality - is so great that there really is no bridge between us.

Slartibartfas · 10-24-2007, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

Yes, that is certainly true. But the point is, as you say, that "all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God". All of us - no exceptions.

Those who want to have homosexual behavior considered as normal are speaking a completely different language: the language of the current, relativized vocabulary. The Christian understanding of what life is has no realtion to this. That is why it is extraordinarily difficult to discuss this. The vocabulary of "rights" is the current generally accepted way of speaking and understanding life.

There is nothing in the Bible or in Christian teaching about "homosexuals" as a separate group of people. There are references to homosexual behavior which is assumed to be perverse - outside the norm. However, it is no worse than any other sinful behavior. There is no noun in the Bible for homosexual.

I don't know the bible that well, but lets assume thats correct, what leads you to qualify homosexuality as being perverse?

Many things are not mentioned in the bible, there might be even many things that are out of the norm. But being out of the norm in itself is not a sin.
And please point me out where the bible says that not living everything according to the current norm is sinful.

Quote:

The idea that human beings can be defined primarily by their sexual behaviors and desires started with Freud, when the Christian understanding of the individual as created by God started to decline in the West. A new view of human beings as simply a higher form of animal, determined by instincts and drives and essentially amoral, increased in general acceptance. From there came the idea that homosexuals must be defined by their behavior - and now Christians are attacked as "Bigots" and "Gay-bashers" and "Filled with Hate" and all the usual far-left labels because we reject that whole way of viewing life.

Science doesn't know morality, thats the job of the human side of the scientists. Science can be used for the good as for the bad.

Just because people used it for something bad doesn't mean that scientific theories are wrong. Whereas I really am not able in how far seeing the human as what evolution suggests leads in any way to the conclusion that homosexuality is something bad or pervert or something similar. Actually homosexuality can be observed at different animal species as well, its obvious not to their disadvantage.

But I am personally a stiff opponent of mixing scientific observations and theories with our moral and ethic concepts. Just because something is like it is in nature does not mean that we have to copy it, we are humans after all and it should be our obligation to think on our own. So in my opinion its insignificant what animals or the "animal called human" is supposed or not supposed to do, in my eyes there is nothing wrong and its to on ones harm if two grown ups of the same sex decide to live together. Its not like it would be a premiere in human history either.

Quote:

The gulf between people on these issues - especially abortion and homosexuality - is so great that there really is no bridge between us.

I have not the slightest idea what abortion has to do with the issue of homosexuality.

Tim · 10-24-2007, 12:43 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I don't know the bible that well, but lets assume thats correct, what leads you to qualify homosexuality as being perverse?

It is based on the understanding that sexuality is transcendent: that heterosexuality relfects the balance between men and women that is created by God. All of the main religions have always assumed that to be true.

Quote:

Many things are not mentioned in the bible, there might be even many things that are out of the norm. But being out of the norm in itself is not a sin.
And please point me out where the bible says that not living everything according to the current norm is sinful.

I did not say being out of the norm was in itself a sin. Anyway, I should not have used the word "norm", which is too shallow a word. I apologize.

Desires are NEVER sinful. We cannot help what we think or feel. But that doesn't mean we act on everything. A person who has homosexual desires is not sinful! He or she is simply in the same situation all of us are in.

The word that is usually left out is MERCY. That is the love of God. No one is left out of that. But we cannot continue with certain behaviors. It may take a long time to stop. But there is strength given by God. This is the part that is almost always ignored by both sides of the debate.

Quote:

Science doesn't know morality, thats the job of the human side of the scientists. Science can be used for the good as for the bad.

Of course.

Quote:

Just because people used it for something bad doesn't mean that scientific theories are wrong. Whereas I really am not able in how far seeing the human as what evolution suggests leads in any way to the conclusion that homosexuality is something bad or pervert or something similar. Actually homosexuality can be observed at different animal species as well, its obvious not to their disadvantage.

Slart - you are misunderstanding what I said.

First of all - Freud's theories are not necessarily scientific. Freud was a brilliant man who helped understand the unconscious life. But he was an artist and a gnostic as well. He did not submit his theories to the scientific method.

As for evolution and homosexuality, I would not agree. The spiritual lives of human beings is not the same as their biology.

Quote:

But I am personally a stiff opponent of mixing scientific observations and theories with our moral and ethic concepts. Just because something is like it is in nature does not mean that we have to copy it, we are humans after all and it should be our obligation to think on our own. So in my opinion its insignificant what animals or the "animal called human" is supposed or not supposed to do, in my eyes there is nothing wrong and its to on ones harm if two grown ups of the same sex decide to live together. Its not like it would be a premiere in human history either.

Well, I think I agree - but I am not sure I understand all of it.

Quote:

I have not the slightest idea what abortion has to do with the issue of homosexuality.

It doesn't have a direct connection.

I put the two together because the change in how those issues are understood is due to the change in how human life is understood.

That is all.

Slartibartfas · 10-24-2007, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim

It is based on the understanding that sexuality is transcendent: that heterosexuality relfects the balance between men and women that is created by God. All of the main religions have always assumed that to be true.

Where in the bible is this concept mentioned, and more importantly where is it mentioned that same sex relationships are a distortion of it?

Quote:

I did not say being out of the norm was in itself a sin. Anyway, I should not have used the word "norm", which is too shallow a word. I apologize.

Desires are NEVER sinful. We cannot help what we think or feel. But that doesn't mean we act on everything. A person who has homosexual desires is not sinful! He or she is simply in the same situation all of us are in.

No he is not in the same position. He has absolutely no desire for having sexual relationships with someone from the other sex, while heterosexual usually have that. (Unless they are eunuchs or something similar)

What you say is that if a heterosexual follows his desires to have a relationship with another grown up basing on the free will from both sides, on love and honesty etc, its good. When a homosexual does the same with the one he desires its a sin.

Quote:

The word that is usually left out is MERCY. That is the love of God. No one is left out of that. But we cannot continue with certain behaviors. It may take a long time to stop. But there is strength given by God. This is the part that is almost always ignored by both sides of the debate.

I still lack to see where in the bible it is written that God wants homosexuals to convert to something they aren't.

Quote:

Slart - you are misunderstanding what I said.

First of all - Freud's theories are not necessarily scientific. Freud was a brilliant man who helped understand the unconscious life. But he was an artist and a gnostic as well. He did not submit his theories to the scientific method.

True, but I guess thats not the core of what we are discussing anyway.

Quote:

It doesn't have a direct connection.

Ok

Quote:

I put the two together because the change in how those issues are understood is due to the change in how human life is understood.

That is all.

I am not sure what you mean by that exactly.

That Darn Republican · 11-04-2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

I don't know the bible that well, but lets assume thats correct, what leads you to qualify homosexuality as being perverse?

There is commonly known in the human intellect what is biologicaland what is bioillogical - it requires no reasoning as one can assert by gender assignment what parts go where and why? This is why the Apostle Paul was correct in telling us in addressing the Romans that a mind to indulge an act outside of its created order and has done so repeatedly has exchanged a natural affection for an unnatural one is an abomination to our Creator, that is what makes it "perverse", not by our own consideration. Remember man's nature is fallen so following that thought to its conclusion anything could be a "consideration" but that God made it clear that the behavior, not the people... is reprehensible to him, therefore we are without excuse, so continuing in that line of behavior is an act of will [open defiance, or pride according to the Word].

Quote:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. The Apostle Paul to the Romans: 1, 18-32

Quote:

Where in the bible is this concept mentioned, and more importantly where is it mentioned that same sex relationships are a distortion of it?

Well, I suppose this may be hard to gather but the Word of God doesn't deal in roominations nor vacilliations... it speaks firmly in the realm of what is pertinient to convey a given point based on God's point of view through the human contact He chose to deliver the point [that we may relate to it]. Isa 55:8 ""For My thoughts [are] not your thoughts, Nor [are] your ways My ways," says the LORD. " we have to always keep that in mind... if you have a mind to submit to His instruction. The "fitting" that was used in the greek is for that thing which in its proper order. The Greek word Kataheko [kata and heko] which means properly fit. God really is not a ogre that does not have what is truly in our best interests, trust me on that.

References:

Strongs Concordance
NKJ Bible

Slartibartfas · 11-04-2007, 03:48 PM

^^
If you know biology, you know that nothing is illogical per se. There are things that are possible and those that are not. As the existance of homosexuality seems to be a fact, there is no doubt that its possible.

Its also illusionary to think that its a modern phenomena. Actually it looks like quite the opposite.

That Darn Republican · 11-04-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

If you know biology, you know that nothing is illogical per se. There are things that are possible and those that are not. As the existence of homosexuality seems to be a fact, there is no doubt that its possible.

Well, before I bounced out of my third year of medical school... I can't say it was for a lack of understanding of the human anatomy. Your response strikes me with a certain sense of denial, with a side of humorous subterfuge on the side. Biology is our label for the inner workings of human physiology. God who created us certainly knew [and we would discover later] that our psychology can effect our phsyiology... thus it is wiser to instruct on how and why we should abstain from behavior that is personally and mentally and most importantly, spiritually.

The existence of homosexuality is proof that the Word is true in what it defines as "fallen" about our natures. There is a reason God took the time to impress upon Moses the importance of exposing the goings on at Sodom and Gomorrah, it relates to the very same mind set today. It is and always has been an ultimate expression of nonconformism - turning your body and its function sexually against its nature. You cannot use biology as a reason. Bology has absolutely nothing to do with will, you can't get around it. God knows more about us than we know about ourselves. Again, the post was about why social forces against the Church want the Church to accept homosexuals into the fold without changing their behavior. It isn't up to individual Christians - they follow a Word, a Word that is truth, absolutely objective and defines absolutely and is hard for all us to accept at times but it is what it is. I challenge you to look as intellectually honest as you can...

Slartibartfas · 11-04-2007, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Darn Republican

Well, before I bounced out of my third year of medical school... I can't say it was for a lack of understanding of the human anatomy. Your response strikes me with a certain sense of denial, with a side of humorous subterfuge on the side. Biology is our label for the inner workings of human physiology. God who created us certainly knew [and we would discover later] that our psychology can effect our phsyiology... thus it is wiser to instruct on how and why we should abstain from behavior that is personally and mentally and most importantly, spiritually.

Pardon, whats your point?

Quote:

The existence of homosexuality is proof that the Word is true in what it defines as "fallen" about our natures. There is a reason God took the time to impress upon Moses the importance of exposing the goings on at Sodom and Gomorrah, it relates to the very same mind set today. It is and always has been an ultimate expression of nonconformism - turning your body and its function sexually against its nature. You cannot use biology as a reason. Bology has absolutely nothing to do with will, you can't get around it. God knows more about us than we know about ourselves. Again, the post was about why social forces against the Church want the Church to accept homosexuals into the fold without changing their behavior. It isn't up to individual Christians - they follow a Word, a Word that is truth, absolutely objective and defines absolutely and is hard for all us to accept at times.

I challenge you to look as intellectually honest as you can...

Of course biology has something to do with our will. They way our brain works bases on genetics and experience.

Anyway, you say you follow a word of truth, show me the words of the bible that condemn homosexuality as something bad (or something similar).

That Darn Republican · 11-04-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Of course biology has something to do with our will. They way our brain works bases on genetics and experience.

No it doesn't at all. Your biology has nothing to do with your will, absolutely nothing. I am not sure what you do know about biology, but what you claim was not true at all.

Your behavior can impact your bodies systems and overall health.... but your body cannot influence the choices you make. It nor life works that way! Sorry I'll have to disagree with your overall thesis.

Slartibartfas · 11-04-2007, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by That Darn Republican

No it doesn't at all. Your biology has nothing to do with your will, absolutely nothing. I am not sure what you do know about biology, but what you claim was not true at all.

Your behavior can impact your bodies systems and overall health.... but your body cannot influence the choices you make. It nor life works that way! Sorry I'll have to disagree with your overall thesis.

If you are infested by rabies, your body won't make you run mad and aggressive in the later stages of the disease?

If your body has no influence over your personality, how can a malfunction of the body can do so?

And I am not sure what you object, do you place the will of humans outside of our brain or is it something else? Because you can hardly neglect that the brain has very much to do with biology.