Human Rights - Political Forum

Brother Oz · 01-11-2007, 07:47 AM

In recent years, various Human Rights proclamations have been issued by the UN and other governmental organisations.
Do you believe that humans should have any absolute rights, and if so what should they be?

Ygorl · 01-26-2007, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother oz

In recent years, various Human Rights proclamations have been issued by the UN and other governmental organisations. Do you believe that humans should have any absolute rights, and if so what should they be ?

First we need to define what exactly an "absolute right" IS. Lets keep in mind that "rights" is a human concept and can't always realistically be equally applied to everyone no matter HOW idealistic we are.

Slartibartfas · 01-26-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brother Oz

In recent years, various Human Rights proclamations have been issued by the UN and other governmental organisations.
Do you believe that humans should have any absolute rights, and if so what should they be?

I would say the Human Rights we have here in Europe are pretty good as a basis for this discussion.

Most importantly of all Human Rights are of course the unloosable right to live, and the right to face no torture. Of course these are not the only one essentials, but the ones that come into my mind first.

Slartibartfas · 01-26-2007, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thane

First we need to define what exactly an "absolute right" IS. Lets keep in mind that "rights" is a human concept and can't always realistically be equally applied to everyone no matter HOW idealistic we are.

Well, the concept of human rights bases on two essential things:

1) They stand about every law. And by "every" I mean every.
2) No one can ever loose them.

Of course in reality, there are some human rights in legal practice that can be temporarely violated, in case of wars, civil wars etc. But the essential ones, must not even be violated if Armageddon arises.

Thats at least how its handled where I am live.

Ygorl · 01-26-2007, 02:20 PM

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Well, the concept of human rights bases on two essential things:

So, are "human rights" the same as "absolute rights" ? Lets be clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

1) They stand about every law. And by "every" I mean every.

2) No one can ever loose them.

So, what ARE "they" ? Isn't that what we're trying to determine here ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Of course in reality, there are some human rights in legal practice that can be temporarely violated, in case of wars, civil wars etc. But the essential ones, must not even be violated if Armageddon arises.

Thats at least how its handled where I am live.

Human rights or absolute rights ? Or are you using the terms interchangeably ?

Slartibartfas · 01-26-2007, 02:39 PM

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Originally Posted by Thane

So, are "human rights" the same as "absolute rights" ? Lets be clear.

Good question. Depends on what you understand exactly by "absolute"

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So, what ARE "they" ? Isn't that what we're trying to determine here ?

Human Rights are of course not god given. Here in Europe at least the answer to your question is pretty clear however.

Council of Europe - ETS no. 005 - Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms

Quote:

Human rights or absolute rights ? Or are you using the terms interchangeably ?

Addressed above. Principally I go with argument 1 and 2 from above. No matter how you want to call it.

Ygorl · 01-26-2007, 04:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Slartibastfas

Good question. Depends on what you understand exactly by "absolute".

Well, that's where it can get interesting I guess. Trying to figure out what those ARE :-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibastfas

Human Rights are of course not god given. Here in Europe at least the answer to your question is pretty clear however.

Council of Europe - ETS no. 005 - Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

So, what is the Council of Europe's idea of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms ? I wonder if THEY could be seen as our absolute rights ? Maybe maybe not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibastfas

Addressed above. Principally I go with argument 1 and 2 from above. No matter how you want to call it.

I saw the STATEMENTs:

Good question. Depends on what you understand exactly by "absolute".

AND

Human Rights are of course not god given. Here in Europe at least the answer to your question is pretty clear however.

Council of Europe - ETS no. 005 - Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms.

But saw no arguments or reasons given.

Slartibartfas · 01-26-2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thane

So, what is the Council of Europe's idea of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms ? I wonder if THEY could be seen as our absolute rights ? Maybe maybe not.

What are your "absolute rights" exactly?

Our Human Rights are above every national or supranational law or constitution. Every country has to comply to them and grant them within its own territory. Everyone has them, no one can loose them and they can not be limited to certain groups or nationalities or to certain citizenships.

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I saw the STATEMENTs:
...

But saw no arguments or reasons given.

The reasons behind them?
Have a look at the concept of Enlightment.

Gumbercules · 01-26-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I would say the Human Rights we have here in Europe are pretty good as a basis for this discussion.

Most importantly of all Human Rights are of course the unloosable right to live, and the right to face no torture. Of course these are not the only one essentials, but the ones that come into my mind first.

I would be interested to know what you would consider torture as it can be pretty broadly defined. The U.S. troops at Gitmo blast loud music at detainees in order to coerce them into giving up information. Would you consider this torture. Just curious about what your limits are.

Gumbercules · 01-26-2007, 05:48 PM

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Article 3 – Prohibition of torture1

No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

I always hate to see things like this without any kind of definition.

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Article 12 – Right to marry1

Men and women of marriageable age have the right to marry and to found a family, according to the national laws governing the exercise of this right.

This is the first time I have ever seen this as a basic human right. I guess this has to do with gay marriage maybe. How many countries in Europe recognise gay marriages?

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Article 10 – Freedom of expression1

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

Article 11 – Freedom of assembly and association1

1. Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.
2. No restrictions shall be placed on the exercise of these rights other than such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. This article shall not prevent the imposition of lawful restrictions on the exercise of these rights by members of the armed forces, of the police or of the administration of the State.

Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination1

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

Article 16 – Restrictions on political activity of aliens1

Nothing in Articles 10, 11 and 14 shall be regarded as preventing the High Contracting Parties from imposing restrictions on the political activity of aliens.

Its funny how they left a loophole to allow them to restrict these rights to aliens. Does this only apply to illegal aliens or aliens in general?

I didn't read the whole thing, but it was pretty interesting. I always enjoy reading laws and codes and conventions. I kind of hate some of the broad language used but that does leave the provisions open for interpretation on a case by case basis. It was also interesting to note the number of loop holes they left for themselves. How long has this convention been established? How many major cases has the court decided?