Torture in America, why it should be used - Page 2 - Political Forum

The Lying Dutchman · 03-16-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTaliAN_ICe

Human rights don't extend to terrorists... terrorists aren't human.

lol, what article in the universal declaration of human rights treaty did you discover that states this? i never seen it! accept the fact that doing repulsive acts do not change the fact wether you are human or not (it is not a declaration on humane human rights..)

jitsnbeer · 03-16-2008, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shiva_TD

Cruel and unusual punishment and coercion in obtaining information is strictly prohibited by the US Constitution and by the Geneva Conventions to which the United States is a treaty member.

The argument that "other countries" violate human rights is non sequitor. It is akin to saying people rob banks therefore robbing banks is acceptable.

the geneva convention rules do not apply to terrorist because they are not state entities.

The Lying Dutchman · 03-16-2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jitsnbeer

the geneva convention rules do not apply to terrorist because they are not state entities.

that is not necessary. the treaty means no state will torture humans, that doesnt mean the ones that get tortured need to have signed a treaty offcourse.
just being human is enough for it being illegal if the us tortures you..

jitsnbeer · 03-16-2008, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GabrielRubeus

I believe torture in the United States should be used to extract information because;
1. We could extract important information such as terrorist attacks if any.
2. We could get information on other terrorists so we can arrest them before they do any harm.
3. We could get information a lot faster than what the hippies and the UN we could do by using plain old speaking skills.

Honestly, the United Nations complains about America's decreasing Human Rights, but why doesn't the UN complain about Russia, North Korea, Chinas, Iran, and many more human rights breach? America is not the only country in the world I am sorry to say that uses torture. Also, to ADD to this America doesn't kill the people, we embarras them or wash-board them, where NK,Russia, China, and others just KILL them or use or tools of torture that are WAY more painful than wash-boarding.

I can go on about this all day, but I'd rather hear what you have to say about this.

UN complains most towards america's human rights issues because the people in america have the ability to speak up against their government and there are third parties that keep human rights in check. In Russia, north korea, iran, etc the people can't do shit in america people can.

jitsnbeer · 03-16-2008, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lying Dutchman

that is not necessary. the treaty means no state will torture humans, that doesnt mean the ones that get tortured need to have signed a treaty offcourse.
just being human is enough for it being illegal if the us tortures you..

nope it ain't like that. that is what one of the CIA guys said on the tele. Geneva lays out what is acceptable and unacceptable when states are at war. the terrorist groups are not state entities thus the rules are not applied to them. that is why i believe reagan refused to identify one of the middle eastern terroist groups as a state entitiy back in the days. If they do recognize them as a state entity then rules apply

The Lying Dutchman · 03-16-2008, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jitsnbeer

nope it ain't like that. that is what one of the CIA guys said on the tele. Geneva lays out what is acceptable and unacceptable when states are at war. the terrorist groups are not state entities thus the rules are not applied to them. that is why i believe reagan refused to identify one of the middle eastern terroist groups as a state entitiy back in the days. If they do recognize them as a state entity then rules apply

terrorist groups are never state entities, they are not part of a state structure. in the geneva conventions a distinction is being made of what are to be considered combattants and what are not.
it is still illegal to torture for the usa though, they signed universal human rights treaties and are therefore are not allowed to torture.

iTaliAN_ICe · 03-16-2008, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lying Dutchman

lol, what article in the universal declaration of human rights treaty did you discover that states this?

I doubt it's in any article. I state my own beliefs in favor of copy-pasting from declarations of "human rights" that I don't support.

GabrielRubeus · 03-16-2008, 08:31 PM

Human Rights ARE MEANT to be broken... It's like a rule in a game, their meant to be broken..

People whom are terrorists or are suspected as terrorists are cheaters, and we the Americans cheat to get them to stop doing what they're doing.. That's how I think of this, as a game.

Shiva_TD · 03-16-2008, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iTaliAN_ICe

Not true. Do you really think people are able to make up intricate lies while they're being subjected to the pain of torture? Furthermore, we have received useful information from waterboarding. After allegedly being waterboarded in Guantanamo, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad admitted his involvement in the 9/11 attacks as well as 30 other terrorist plots.

I actually believe that he was waterboarded prior by the CIA prior to going to GITMO but regardless of that we aren't sure he was actually involved in 9/11 or that the other 30 alledged terrorist plots even existed. That's the problem with torture, you get "information you want" regardless of whether it is true or not.

Quote:

I understand your argument, but at times like these, we sometimes have to make compromises to sufficiently protect ourselves from terrorism. If possible, I'd torture every terrorist in the world before I allowed even one innocent person to die because of them.

The Constitution prohibits torture so either scrap the Constitution and install a tryannical government or abide by the Constitution and ensure the protections of human rights it demands.

jitsnbeer · 03-16-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Lying Dutchman

terrorist groups are never state entities, they are not part of a state structure. in the geneva conventions a distinction is being made of what are to be considered combattants and what are not.
it is still illegal to torture for the usa though, they signed universal human rights treaties and are therefore are not allowed to torture.

so the genevea convention has nothing to do with torturing terrorist. who cares about the universal human rights treatie. what gives this treaty power is balls and no country will do anything to stop us because america is the one that provides the balls.