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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 03-09-2008, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Izzibeth
Funny thing about educating yourself on a subject is you don't have to "copy and paste".
Since so often people apparently require others to hold their hand when presented with information that they disagree with... here is an article to start you on your way towards researching the REAL consequences (not projected) of making abortion illegal. GHANA
1972, the year before Roe vs. Wade comes to fruition. The Federal Centers for Disease Control report 39 maternal deaths from illegal abortion. These numbers, of course, were indeed tragedies that should have been prevented with proper medical care to both the mother and the unborn child. That being said, these numbers are a far cry from the estimated thousands used to push the Roe vs. Wade movement, estimates that today were proven to be false.

When abortion was legalized, these so called horrible "back-door" abortionists were given the freedom to put a shingle on their front door. The funny thing is, though, abortions aren't that much different today than they were in the 1960's, and the threat of life comes only in the mass of numbers involved in the slight risk factor.

Now that Ghana article, it gave some explicit imagery on self-induced abortions, which only implies the lack of medical advances the U.S. is fortunate to have. The risk won't nearly be as inherent were abortions made illegal and should women have to resort to consulting back-door practices again.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008, 01:41 AM
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Locke9-05 Locke9-05 is offline
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So what if the cause was irresponsibility? Are people not allowed to fix thier mistakes these days they have to be uneccessarily punished just out of principal? Should tattoo removal be illegal too? Unless that fetus is human being it doesn't matter.
That fetus is a human being, it's a human life--by scientific standards in fact. Biologically (and this is irrefutable...), life begins at conception. That's what science has determined and science would be correct. The life that is created has the human life support systems--a brain, a beating heart, a circulatory system, spinal cord, etc. as well as human DNA. It is a human life. People who don't want children should take the necessary precautions so that they either don't have children--or in the event that they do have children, they should put them up for adoption... It's not that difficult. They may define it as a "mistake," but this isn't like some insignificant typo in Microsoft Word where you press the "undo" button and that's that--no harm no foul. This is a human life by all standards and it was created and by moral and societal standards it needs to be given the chance that it deserves in this world.
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That doesn't solve anything, abortion is an issue dealing with people who have already made the mistake of having irresponsible sex, the solution "Don't have sex irresponsibly" is a pointless, meaningless answer. The solution to the war in Iraq isn't "We shouldn't have went over there in the first place", no matter how true it may be.
No, this issue is completely the result of sexual irresponsibility and idiots who can't keep their legs closed. If you don't want kids, there's one pretty simple preventative measure that you can take isn't there? Yeah... That's the root of this problem. Abortion shouldn't even be an issue in the first place--killing human fetuses shouldn't be a something that people even consider as an option or availability... What kind of sick principle is that? Just that--a sick one.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
Forcing someone to have an unwanted child, to endure a pregnancy against thier will, to ruin thier lives and thier family's lives, putting more constraint on the already large, suffering human population, all over some brainless mass of human protein, that would be the inhumane and irresponsible thing to me.
Lets see here. With every action there is an equal and opposing reaction. A real smart guy once said that and it can be applied to this idea here as well. You make stupid choices, you deal with the damn consequences. Someone has sex, they get pregnant, that's the way it goes. It's unnatural, immoral, and weak for someone who chose to do something that they knew full well could result in pregnancy and then selfishly decide to end the life that was created by that choice. That sob story doesn't work in this society. People make choices, people deal with what nature gives them because of their choices
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He did not specify what type of life so a tumor meets that one qualification.
I'm surprised you weren't able to see what he meant. It seemed quite obvious, given the whole idea of this debate--but hey... I guess you can go ahead and argue semantics...
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
A sperm and egg are completely nesseccary and required for life also and will grow into a human being.
So what? One sperm cell and one egg are required for life to grow into a human being and by the process of human sexual reproduction, not all of them will be utilized. Thousands of sperm cells can't fertilize one egg--all but one are destined to die by the very process we're discussing, and if the woman hasn't had sex the egg is discarded by natural means. Your arguments in this general area hold no water. Yes, the process is random, meaning the sperm cells are "programmed" (if you will) to try and reach the egg, but only one will reach it and the rest will die. That's not human intervention, that's the human body's natural process, so if you're arguing that each individual sperm cell equates a human live, it's a very absurd argument indeed--rendered a complete fallacy by the systematic process of reproduction itself.
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That was exactly my point, not enough.
And that was exactly my point... The real problem is all the unwanted births. But who's to blame for the "unwanted" births? The people who for whatever reason (usually lack of self-control/sexual irresponsibility/stupidity) deem the lives they created "mistakes" and throw them at adoption agencies to take care of. The only thing that will fix this problem/issue is people stopping their lives of promiscuity and sexual irresponsibility...
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
And your solution is social irresponsibility.
Oh what a brilliant "argument" , allow me to commend you on such a completely illogical and completely absurd statement. My solution--which I already stated was to prevent sexual irresponsibility. So, straight from your own words--which are shown clearly above this text--it would seem you think that people who aren't sexually irresponsible are socially irresponsible? Or maybe just the idea of trying to educate people on the risk of sexual irresponsibility and trying to prevent people from taking those risks is socially irresponsible... I just have one question for you... What in the hell was the gist of that argument? By your own words, you associated sexual responsibility with social irresponsibility as if it's a bad thing. How in God's name does that work?
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
Abortion will alleliate that problem even more so than sexual responsibility (imagine the two combined?).
It would seem you don't understand the point of my argument. I'm trying to suggest alternative means to murdering innocent human lives. You can call them what you will, but they are human lives and were created with a purpose in nature--and abortion destroys many things: that purpose in nature, the human potential behind those lives, the chance that those human lives deserved and were never given because of selfish reasons, etc. So yes, it would be selfishly efficient, but those of us who appreciate the moral aspect and side of this debate--those of us who see murder and the snuffing out of a human life, the killing of a tiny human being for selfish reasons to be appalling and the truth that it goes against the very grain of nature--are suggesting alternatives, not combinations with that completely hideous and selfish "practice."
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
Half of all conceptions are naturally stillbirthed.
What's the keyword there? I'll give you three guesses and the first two don't count. It's natural. The key word there is natural. That means it occurs naturally. How many more ways and times can I emphasize this? Humans physically murdering the human fetus--the tiny human life for selfish reasons--for individualistic and anarchical purpose--goes against the very grain of nature and in no way can it be logically compared to a stillbirth.
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Originally Posted by Bronze Medal View Post
Every single one of those sperms were created to reach that egg not just one. Just because for each conception only one sperm can fetilize the egg does not mean the ones that didn't fertilize the egg were there just for show or just for decoration.

And what of the egg you flush down the toilet every few weeks (or however often it is I wouldn't know)? Those are inarguably intended soley and without compitition to be fertilized are they not?

The fact is, every standard of human life you apply to fetii ultimately applies to sperm/egg as well. Sperm and egg are vital processes, they will grow into human beings, they have human DNA.

How do your standards make my argument 'against the idea of the reproductive system'?
I already addressed this above, but for reference, here it is:
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Originally Posted by Locke9-05 View Post
One sperm cell and one egg are required for life to grow into a human being and by the process of human sexual reproduction, not all of them will be utilized. Thousands of sperm cells can't fertilize one egg--all but one are destined to die by the very process we're discussing, and if the woman hasn't had sex the egg is discarded by natural means. Your arguments in this general area hold no water. Yes, the process is random, meaning the sperm cells are "programmed" (if you will) to try and reach the egg, but only one will reach it and the rest will die. That's not human intervention, that's the human body's natural process, so if you're arguing that each individual sperm cell equates a human live, it's a very absurd argument indeed--rendered a complete fallacy by the systematic process of reproduction itself.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008, 03:44 AM
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Abortion used to be illegal and with terrible consequences for many women and girls who went to back street abortionists and paid with their lives as well as their cash.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008, 08:47 AM
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Abortion used to be illegal and with terrible consequences for many women and girls who went to back street abortionists and paid with their lives as well as their cash.
What do you mean terrible consequences? You mean the "terrible consequences" resulting mostly from those individuals' choices to behave in ways that resulted in pregnancy? No sympathy here. If someone is going to do that and then go to that much trouble to try and kill a new life that they created when there are obviously so many better options and when it completely goes against the grain of nature to do it, the consequences become a result of their stupid choices and actions. I love it how people try to blame crime and the suffering that results from it on the law in all these issues... People who seek ways around the law are criminals, they break the law because they're selfish and don't care about the rest of society and they obviously don't care about what's right. Their actions show that perfectly. There were plenty of women during the time when abortion was illegal who didn't kill the human lives they created and chose to go through with the natural process of birthing and adoption--which showed integrity in that they were at least opposed to killing off their "mistakes," which happened to be human lives as well...
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 03-10-2008, 03:53 PM
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Abortion used to be illegal and with terrible consequences for many women and girls who went to back street abortionists and paid with their lives as well as their cash.
News flash, abortions are not miracles. Legality of the process does not take away the inherent risk of death.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Locke9-05 View Post
What do you mean terrible consequences? You mean the "terrible consequences" resulting mostly from those individuals' choices to behave in ways that resulted in pregnancy? No sympathy here. If someone is going to do that and then go to that much trouble to try and kill a new life that they created when there are obviously so many better options and when it completely goes against the grain of nature to do it, the consequences become a result of their stupid choices and actions. I love it how people try to blame crime and the suffering that results from it on the law in all these issues... People who seek ways around the law are criminals, they break the law because they're selfish and don't care about the rest of society and they obviously don't care about what's right. Their actions show that perfectly. There were plenty of women during the time when abortion was illegal who didn't kill the human lives they created and chose to go through with the natural process of birthing and adoption--which showed integrity in that they were at least opposed to killing off their "mistakes," which happened to be human lives as well...
I would like your definition of 'sexual irresponsibility.' Would that be sex outside marriage? Thing is, in the current society many people don't get married until they are well into their twenties. Do you expect them to remain a virgin until they are 25? If you are, then I'd say you are expecting to much from people.

You realize that for many people throughout history prostitution was the only job that many single woman could get? That the slums of London in the 1800s for example, where it was estimated that 1 out of every 12 woman was a prostitute. Having all of your children is not economically viable, and you exist in a society that is wanting for morals.

FYI- the law isn't perfect. While laws do help define society, not all lawbreakers are anarchists. If you want to take abortion as being supremely selfish, I'll take it the other way and say that the forced labor under Stalin was a good thing because it made the USSR into a massive industrial power.
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Last edited by rsather139 : 03-11-2008 at 01:23 AM.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:13 AM
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News flash, abortions are not miracles. Legality of the process does not take away the inherent risk of death.
No, but it allows it to be preformed by a certified doctor in sterile conditions that are regulated.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 01:55 AM
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Abortion: would making it illegal actually solve the problem
Another question;

How do you force a woman to have a baby against her will?
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:00 AM
The Lying Dutchman The Lying Dutchman is offline
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Another question;

How do you force a woman to have a baby against her will?
by rape, in coutries where abortions are illegal.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2008, 06:03 AM
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No, but it allows it to be preformed by a certified doctor in sterile conditions that are regulated.
Most abortionists today knew what they were doing when it was illegal... It isn't like third world countries where foreign materials are being used to extract the baby. Honestly, I hate this argument. In the event that a woman wanted to have a back-door abortion, who would be the more viable option, the mad scientist or the certified doctor?
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