TheHat

Listening to viewpoints is great, but they better be based in some kind of fact, otherwise what good is it?


Sure it does. Never said it didnt. But the number of rapes that turn into pregnancies is almost null and void, and using that extreme to say it shouldnt be outlawed just doesnt add up for me.

Yes they do. But again, a very small minute fraction of pregnancies, just like rape.

I didnt generalize. I gave you the CDC's own numbers on it, which evidently you ignored altogether.

How do you know that? Last I checked the Supreme Court created the current law, which is outside its limitations under the Constitution. Which is another reason why people dont like it.

Who is "they"? Well if you mean the government then you are right, they need to protect all CITIZENS. Just b/c one is in the womb hardly makes it none human or any less a citizen.

As for making it disappear, go read Locke's post about laws. Laws are not created to make things disappear, that is impossible.

By your logic in the last paragraph, you do realize you are also saying that outlawing murder in general is wrong too. Afterall murder is illegal but people still do it. We can name drugs, rape, stealing, arson, and countless other things.

The Lying Dutchman

pregnancy out of rape does happen and especially in warzones. a small fraction doesnt mean that it does not bring a dilemma to the debate.

TheHat

Who have I judged?

Prove it. This is about as unintelligent a statement I have seen yet.

I seriously am concerned for you if you think conservatism is closed minded. We do not live in a liberal democracy. We live in a Republic. Democracies are ruled by majorities, which it is safe to say is not the case.

TheHat

Isnt that what I said earlier? It does happen but not enough to not outlaw it. It is an extreme circumstance. Same as warzones.

Locke9-05

No need to be sorry, but it's always good in a debate to back up your disagreement with some kind of fact.
That's the mindset of anarchy. You realize this, I hope? You realize how irrational such "logic" is, do you not? The mindset of anarchy emphasizes that people will do it no matter what, so society/government can step off. That makes no sense. People will always do irresponsible, irrational, and stupid things, and that's why society punishes them for them--it's the legal system...
Society literally and physically can't stop people from doing stupid, immoral, and irrational things. We've been over this at least three times now. Society cannot physically prevent people from doing what they're going to do--no matter what itis. What society can do is punish people who make irrational, immoral, and downright stupid choices after the fact.
You know what's not "fair?" A human being being created by a woman's choice and then that woman deciding to kill--to murder--that human being because she can't take some damn responsibility for her choice... That's the dictionary definition of "unfair." Going through with a pregnancy is nature... How is it "not fair?" An abortion destroys the integrity of a natural process and it kills a human being... So we've got--preserve the integrity of nature and human choice... Then we've got--destroy the integrity of nature, shit on responsibility and murder a human being. Which of those is "fair" again?
No, it's actually a moral standing that preserves and respects the integrity of a natural process that would otherwise be destroyed while a human life--a human being--would be murdered for nothing but selfish reasons. Those who happen to believe in life and the preservation of that natural process (as well as human choice and responsibility) are labeled with conservative views. I would say the idea that a woman should be able to sleep around, initiate the natural process of human reproduction, then destroy that process and destroy the idea of choice and responsibility while killing a human being for purely selfish reasons is not "open-minded." This is an issue of life versus death. It's not "pro-life" versus "pro-choice." The choice was made at the time of conception by scientific, natural and every other logical rational standard. The issue here is life versus death. Which of those is more "open-minded?"
Hah! Now you bring up a scenario that's even less common than pregnancies caused by rape. I've already said before that I actually don't disagree with the reasoning of that specific scenario, by the way. Why? Because in that case, the choice to have the abortion is one made to save a life, like you said, and while it comes with a cost, it's not chosen for selfish reasons. Generally those who find themselves in that situation would have otherwise followed through with the natural process and given birth anyway. See how all the factors add up? A life for a life is so much different from a murder for selfish foolishness.

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

ninatroup

A lot of people disagree with abortion, especially early-stage abortion, being constituted as murder. For the first few weeks, there is nothing living inside a mother when she becomes pregnant. It is literally cells. There are no organs, no heartbeat, nothing. Yes, I agree it is a potential life-form, sure, but I still don't see how YOU as a person have the right to criticise others for having abortions.

I DISAGREE with abortions, I think it is murder, and that it is wrong, but not everybody agrees with that viewpoint, which is something you don't seem to consider. It's not a black and white issue and thus cannot be treated as such. How can you ban it outright when there are obviously some cases which would make an abortion morally viable?

__________________
- Freedom of speech is man's greatest luxury -

Izzibeth

Ugh. Abortion debates are so tedious online.

Yes it is. Because the mother is likely going to be the one to care for the baby. Babies are not able to survive on their own.

That is for the mother to decide. Again, as she will be the one caring for the child. There are way too many possibilities for me to even begin listing. I'm sure you can think of some on your own.

Nice try, but no.

PROPER education is not available in many areas. If you read the article I posted, it points out one right there.

ONCE MORE... this is reality. People have sex. People have sex for social reasons without the want of getting pregnant. People are not educated.

The fact of the matter is that people have sex. Plain and simple. You can not STOP people from having sex. This has been shown time and time again. So what do you do when you understand this point? You move a step before that and try to get to the people BEFOREHAND so that WHEN (not if) they have sex, they are having the safest sex possible with the most comprehensive education available. Again, read the article. She clearly states that a lot of the people who she spoke with had sex, had a problem, and THEN got educated. They should be getting educated FIRST. That will lower the instances of the "problem" step.

Research on the subject will answer your question. I even provided you a starting point. Contrary to your belief here, comprehensive sexual education is not taught nearly enough. Instead what is given is "Just Say No" "education". Which does not work. Again. I can not hold peoples' hands with this subject. The data is readily available.

Anyone can walk into a health clinic and get condoms. That is correct. The next step is using them. Even better.. using them correctly. EVEN better.. getting the guy to use them (as a woman, trust me, I have been in plenty of instances where I was ASKED if the guy should use them. not everyone is confident enough to say "why the fuck are you even asking me that? OF COURSE").
But here is one thing you are forgetting. The taboo of sex. People are made to feel ashamed for having sex. Condoms are falsely linked with promiscuity. Men and women are told time and time again (by other men) that condoms "don't make it feel as good". There are pressures. Sex ed dispells the myths that make people pause before using the condom like they should.

And any woman can drop off their kid? Yeah. That's realistic. The ridicule and shame towards that woman by the people who knew she was pregnant will totally be non-existent. And let me tell you that as someone who grew up surrounded by the foster care system (my mother works at a DSS branch in MA) I would rather have an abortion than put a human being through that system. No question.

Not at all extreme. Those conditions were the same here when abortion was illegal. Same in the UK. If you don't think that poor women in the United States who have an opportunity to get an education and get themselves out of the poverty cycle would choose abortion over losing all of that hope.... I don't know what to tell you.

Reading statistics is helpful in these arguments. A number of women who have abortions are married and already have children. They choose to abort with the support of their partners because they know they can not afford to have another child. It is not black and white. I know you're trying desperately to make it so by equating abortions with promiscuity but it is simply not so. There are so many reasons why people terminate their pregnancies. Not just one.

What? Poverty and inability to care for children does exist in this country, believe it or not.
What does C-section on demand have to do with anything? Such procedures have actually been shown to raise the risk of infant mortality, by the way.
Adoption services are a joke. If a child is over a certain age or not white the chances of them being adopted are low. The "less desirable children" (as I heard them described second-hand by someone who tried to adopt but was ineligible for certain children) are not adopted. They are shuffled through the foster care system. Something I mentioned earlier.

Abortion is reality. The reason why there are so many (one more time though.... we are at the lowest rate in 30 years) is because the REAL CAUSES is not being addressed.

Seriously? I'm not even going to address this because it is ridiculous.

Makes perfect sense. It is not the man's (in this example, who stabs the pregnant woman to death) decision to make. He has no right to make that decision. It is not his body. She has rights over her own body. He does not have rights over her body. Get it?

This is getting really old though... so I might have to stop (I promised myself months ago that I wouldn't get into any more abortion debates) or else my head might really explode while sitting here at my computer. Super serial, guys.

__________________

Izzibeth

Ironic.....

Rape accounts for approximately 1% of all abortion. As you said, it is a minute number. Luckily, in the United States, many places offer the Emergency Contraception pill which can prevent pregnancy after rape. This is why the number is so low (it could be lower if some private companies weren't "against" giving EC to rape victims). Treating the problem at it's root cause is effective.

The United States has one of the highest infant and maternal mortality rates in the industrialized world. The majority of abortions are done within the first two terms of pregnancy. The majority of those are not for the health of the mother or because the fetus is developing abnormally.

Pretty sure that if it were societies view, it would have been overturned by now. 30 years later it's still there. While it is contested... it's not by the majority of the country.

Let me know when you locate a fetus with a social security number.

Laws are for deterrent and punishment.

How... is that being said exactly? I read the word "protect" in there. Not outlawing murder is certainly not protecting anyone. Allowing anyone and everyone to murder without consequence would see the downfall of your country in less than a decade. Not outlawing abortion is providing opportunity for women to receive care that does not endanger their lives. I certainly don't see the United States falling into shambles because women aren't being punished for terminating their pregnancies. How.... are the two the same? Please. Take your time.

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Locke9-05

First of all, it's not a "potential life form" it's a human being by scientific standards, even. This has been shown time and time again, pro choice advocates can deny the facts if they choose, but human beings are being killed in abortions...

Secondly, I have the right to criticize others for having abortions as entitled to me by the first amendment--freedom of speech, expression, etc. I can criticize and express my distaste of whatever I see fit, so long as there are no specific accounts of libel in my criticisms (no defamation of character, slander, etc.), and so long as no one is in danger because of my criticisms. That's why I have the right to criticize people for having abortions. Freedom of speech. Secondly, it's entirely rational to criticize those who commit murder for selfish reasons... We judge and convict those who kill other human beings for reasons that are unjustified by the legal system, why is killing a newly conceived human being any different--especially when it's a completely hypocritical act in doing so? The fact of the matter is it's not. My criticisms are not unmerited in any way. Those who are reasonable enough and humane enough to seek the alternatives that preserve the natural process of reproduction (the process they made the choice to "initiate," if you will) deserve more respect than those who would simply rather destroy the integrity of the natural human reproductive process, kill a human being and be done with their own selfish problem--one they created.
This may not be a "black and white" issue--a term so many liberals are so quick to throw out whenever it suits their position of any debate, but it is a simple issue. Life versus death. That's a simple issue... The only two cases that have ever shown to be an issue of something other than a mother's selfish desire to drop the problems she created by any means necessary (even if that means killing a human being to do so) are rape and when the mother's life is in danger from the pregnancy. First of all, those scenarios are too rare to give any credence to the "pro-choice" position of this debate. Secondly, does rape merit the murder of an innocent human being? No. I think it merits the killing of the scumbag who committed it, but is the new life that's created at fault? No. A life for a life is the only truly rational scenario in which this "act" might have any kind of actual benefit. So no, this isn't a "black and white issue," but it's a very simple one when it comes down to the "nitty gritty" of the two opposing sides of the debate--life versus death

__________________
"Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country."
-John F. Kennedy

"Education begins the gentleman, but reading, good company and reflection must finish him."
-John Locke

"What worries you, masters you."
-John Locke
___________________

ahtu

Abortion

Month One: Mommy, I am only 8 inches long, but I have all my organs. I love the sound of your voice. Every time I hear it, I wave my arms and legs. The sound of your heart beat is my favorite lullaby.

Month Two: Mommy, today I learned how to suck my thumb. If you could see me, you could definitely tell that I am a baby. I'm not big enough to survive outside my home though. It is so nice and warm in here.

Month Three: You know what Mommy, I'm a girl !! I hope that makes you happy. I always want you to be happy. I don't like it when you cry. You sound so sad. It makes me sad too, and I cry with you even though you can't hear me.

Month Four: Mommy, my hair is starting to grow. It is very short and fine, but I will have a lot of it. I spend a lot of my time exercising. I can turn my head and curl my fingers and toes, and stretch my arms and legs. I am becoming quite good at it too.

Month Five: You went to the doctor today. Mommy, he lied to you. He said that I'm not a baby. I am a baby Mommy, your baby. I think and feel. Mommy, what's abortion?

Month Six: I can hear that doctor again. I don't like him. He seems cold and heartless. Something is intruding my home. The doctor called it a needle. Mommy what is it? It burns! Please make him stop! I can't get away from it! Mommy!! HELP me!! No...

Month Seven: Mommy, I am okay. I am in Jesus's arms. He is holding me. He told me about abortion. Why didn't you want me Mommy?