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05-14-2008, 02:07 PM
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#51 (permalink)
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Banned
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presluc
That is my point real estate changes hands sometimes for the good sometimes for the bad.
Example;
How many times has Israel and Jeruselem changed hands?
I'm sure sometime in history Israel belonged to the Jewish people it fell there was no great uproar about it, now the Jewish people take it back what's the problem?  |
How would you feel about the Mexicans taking back California and Texas?
(Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with them taking back Texas!) |
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05-14-2008, 02:32 PM
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#52 (permalink)
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Baron
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 1,001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presluc
That is my point real estate changes hands sometimes for the good sometimes for the bad.
Example;
How many times has Israel and Jeruselem changed hands?
I'm sure sometime in history Israel belonged to the Jewish people it fell there was no great uproar about it, now the Jewish people take it back what's the problem? |
because others that possesed the city equally enjoy the right to claim this city, which brings us to the conflict of today. |
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05-14-2008, 03:25 PM
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#53 (permalink)
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Reeve
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In the mailbox near you!
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GlobalSmiles
Kerreh I think you'd find I'm totally open to a one sate solution as long as the violence ends and Israel is accepted.
As for anyone asking Israelis to leave? How far do we go back to grandfather the no more hostile take over invasions rule we seem to go by now? It seems to me Israel got it done just within the window. They aren't going anywhere, peace with those around them is necessary but I'm pretty sure that peace will never include Jews leaving Israel en masse. So why are we wasting time talking about it?
Anya I think thats where we mis communicated; is that I thought you were saying Israel should be dismantled. My arguments against that whether people like it or not are pretty infallible, its just not going to happen. I am against their settlement expansions and such just as I am against the rocket attacks and such.
I would prefer to see a one state solution it just looks too hopeless now.
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Actually I never said Israel should be dismantled, I said that Israel should learn to give and take if it wants peace. They pretend not to realize that a peace process is impossible as long as Palestinians are not given back their rights. How do you justify taking away a people's rights? As long as they keep stealing land from them, oppress them under occupation, etc, they're not gonna be happy. You expect them to be happy? those guys keep whining about how much terrorism hurts them, but don't show any intention of abiding by international law, giving Palestinians any rights, in fact they keep acting to the contrary, and have for the past century.
As I always said, you can not stifle a resistance with halfass measures like counterterrorism and state terrorism. You can try to crush it completely. Or you can try to actually understand the reasons for the resistance and fix the issues. Every resistance movement and revolution has been a response to oppression, and so is this one. So is the entire Islam vs the West conflict currently. If Muslims weren't oppressed by Israel and the rest of the western powers, fundamentalism would have no fertile ground to root into. The oppressive actions of powerful entities in Israel and the US breed terrorism.
__________________
Only YOU can stop stupid posts.
Last edited by Kerreh; 05-14-2008 at 03:41 PM.
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05-14-2008, 03:26 PM
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#54 (permalink)
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Sovereign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayingAttention
How would you feel about the Mexicans taking back California and Texas?
(Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with them taking back Texas!)
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Hell the majority of labor there is done my Mexicans anyway.
The question is would the Mexicans want to take back California and Texas?
It is one thing to live in a place it is another to be responsible for talking care of that place for roads, housing,food trade,hospitals, schools, law and order, defence army, and then there'sdisaster releif for earthquakes. ect
If Mexico is so good at taking care of real estate how come their people are coming north? |
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05-14-2008, 03:29 PM
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#55 (permalink)
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Sovereign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lying Dutchman
because others that possesed the city equally enjoy the right to claim this city, which brings us to the conflict of today.
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At one time in history the city and Israel was the property of Israel at one time it belonged to Rome.
At onetime Israel belonged to Palestine.
So what's your point? |
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05-14-2008, 08:56 PM
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#56 (permalink)
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Squire
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cottage Grove, Oregon, USA
Posts: 580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by presluc
At one time in history the city and Israel was the property of Israel at one time it belonged to Rome.
At onetime Israel belonged to Palestine.
So what's your point? |
As I recall, after the crusades, the moslems took back the "Holy Land"', and again, it all became part of the Moslem Turkish empire until after the Turk's defeat in the first WW, when TransJordan/ Palestine became a British protectorate, and that it was only after the British left in 1948 that Israel became more than an idea. So, Palestine/Israel has been a part of some other empire since Roman times. It is interesting that after the final defeat of the Moslem Iberian empire in Granada in 1492 by the Christians, a lot of Jews fled the Inquisition to many parts of the Moslem world where they continued to speak Spanish (Ladino) until after 1948.
Last edited by choclosteve; 05-14-2008 at 09:13 PM.
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05-14-2008, 09:43 PM
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#57 (permalink)
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 495
Country: 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PayingAttention
How would you feel about the Mexicans taking back California and Texas?
(Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with them taking back Texas!)
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I'd say they'd have to pull off taking it from us. |
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05-14-2008, 09:48 PM
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#58 (permalink)
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Banned
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 495
Country:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerreh
Actually I never said Israel should be dismantled, I said that Israel should learn to give and take if it wants peace. They pretend not to realize that a peace process is impossible as long as Palestinians are not given back their rights. How do you justify taking away a people's rights? As long as they keep stealing land from them, oppress them under occupation, etc, they're not gonna be happy. You expect them to be happy? those guys keep whining about how much terrorism hurts them, but don't show any intention of abiding by international law, giving Palestinians any rights, in fact they keep acting to the contrary, and have for the past century.
As I always said, you can not stifle a resistance with halfass measures like counterterrorism and state terrorism. You can try to crush it completely. Or you can try to actually understand the reasons for the resistance and fix the issues. Every resistance movement and revolution has been a response to oppression, and so is this one. So is the entire Islam vs the West conflict currently. If Muslims weren't oppressed by Israel and the rest of the western powers, fundamentalism would have no fertile ground to root into. The oppressive actions of powerful entities in Israel and the US breed terrorism.
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While I'd agree to some extent about Israel I think you're delusional about the west holding arabs down. Sounds like the bogeyman mentality right wingers are often accused of the US. There is no bogeyman, westerners just want exchange of goods and services, Arabs need to stop blaming the fallacies of their own governments on western nations.
MY only disagreement with your Israeli point is that apparently Palestinians want war when they elect a group like Hamas to represent them I don't see what else they could mean by such an action. |
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05-14-2008, 09:55 PM
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#59 (permalink)
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Earl
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,564
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Every resistance movement and revolution has been a response to oppression
Since you are smart enough to know that truism, you should also be smart enough to understand that when you choose to fight a war, you risk losing. The Palestinians are losing badly, if it can even be said they are fighting anymore. They'd like to, but the Palestinian military efforts have been underwhelming to say the least for the last five years.
How would you feel about the Mexicans taking back California and Texas?
It would suck. But we wouldn't fight a useless 40-year war to take it back. Most nations and peoples are rational enough to give up when a situation is hopeless. Or at least take the best deal you can.
__________________
chicken butt
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05-15-2008, 11:48 AM
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#60 (permalink)
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Sovereign
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by choclosteve
As I recall, after the crusades, the moslems took back the "Holy Land"', and again, it all became part of the Moslem Turkish empire until after the Turk's defeat in the first WW, when TransJordan/ Palestine became a British protectorate, and that it was only after the British left in 1948 that Israel became more than an idea. So, Palestine/Israel has been a part of some other empire since Roman times. It is interesting that after the final defeat of the Moslem Iberian empire in Granada in 1492 by the Christians, a lot of Jews fled the Inquisition to many parts of the Moslem world where they continued to speak Spanish (Ladino) until after 1948.
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That is interesting,history has always facinated me.
What is also interesting that in 1948 Jewish people came to Israel from all over the world Russia ,al over Europe, the baltics, even America.
All these differant people came together to forge one of the best if not the best government and military force in the mideast. |
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