I'm not sure whether this fits in, or excuses current or recent administrations, but I thought the other day about the fact that perhaps politicians and administrations have to make decisions based on what is "best" for America because of decisions that were made in the past. Take Israel. I'd love to jump on the band wagon and think that we are buddy-buddy with Israel because Bush is a crazy religious zealot and he has Israel's back because they're on the same "side" of religion as us and the muslims are not. But, besides having the UN set give Israel to the Jews after WWII, are there other circumstances (financially I'm assuming) that may have been set up in prior presidencies that keeps us tied to them? I'm no historian when it comes to US and Israeli relations, but we've watched out for them before the Bush admin. right?

Like I said, I'm not sure if this really fits into the thread, but seeing as how western muslims might, and probably do, have a problem with our support of Israel, I just thought I'd throw it in there.

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Neither am I the means to any end others may wish to accomplish. I am not a tool for their use. I am not a servant of their needs. I am not a bandage for their wounds. I am not a sacrifice on their altars. ... I owe nothing to my brothers, nor do I gather debts from them. I ask no one to live for me, nor do I live for others. I covet no mans soul, nor is my soul theirs to covet.

Ayn Rand, Anthem.

Here's what I said:

Yes, I'm well aware of your veiws that we have a so called "imperialistic" foreign policy.You like to blame Islams hatred of the west on THAT. That's your opinion and I won't argue it with you.

You say:

Even the Iraq Study Group Report said it: get peace in the West Bank so that the Arabs will stop seeing us financiers of Zionist ambitions.

You know how many times and different strategies Isreal has given into and attempted to appease the aggression of Arabs ? Still hasn't worked has it ? Nothing will work. I know I know it's Israel and Americas imperialism that's caused all the problems.

The final, bolded sentence was the only part of what I said that could be taken as sarcasm (it IS sarcasm obviously). Sarcasm because I've experienced enough your defense of Arab aggression. You like to lay the entire blame at the feet of Israel and America. To YOU, that may make sense. The facts and the history that I'VE studied, tell a much different story.

As for your comment:

You can go back to thinking that you have all the answers and everyone else just doesn't get it.

I don't think I have all the answers. I think I have a clearer understanding of certain things though. I've recommended some readings on the history of the middle east, Israel and arab aggression and you (and many others) choose to ignore them. It's not my job to educate you or anyone else about these things. If you wish to defend certain things, that's your business. You're defending them using poor or incorrect reasoning from the history I've studied .... but, well that's why I'm not too interested in arguing about this with you.

DAVID MEIR-LEVI: BIG LIES. Demolishing The Myths of the Propaganda War Against Israel

These comments from Lieberman !!

Sen. Joseph Lieberman said opponents of President Bush’s policies on the Iraq war are exercising "wrong-headed thinking” and are operating in a "political climate” where Bush can only do wrong.

In a speech Monday to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Lieberman called Islamist extremism "a totalitarian ideology as violent and vicious as the fascism and communism we Americans and our allies fought and defeated in the last century.”

"Unfortunately, many in our country today do not seem to share that critical understanding of the threats we face. Increasingly, the debate over our foreign policy is becoming so polarized, so bound up in the battles we are having here in Washington, that it seems blind to the real battle outside America, the challenge of our time from the Islamist extremists.”

"There is something profoundly wrong when opposition to the war in Iraq seems to inspire greater passion than opposition to Islamist extremism. There is something profoundly wrong when there is so much distrust of our intelligence community that some Americans doubt the plain and ominous facts about the threat to us posed by Iran.

"And there is something profoundly wrong when, in the face of attacks by radical Islam, we think we can find safety and stability by pulling back, by talking to and accommodating our enemies, and abandoning our friends and allies."


Nice to hear SOMEONE making sense :-) Sorry, a bit sideways of the topic, but since he mentions parts of middle east foreign policy.


Sen. Joe Lieberman Alarmed by Radical Islam Threat

I don't use poor or incorrect reasoning. Actually, you are the one who uses outright bias towards Muslims, filtering out knowledge that refutes your opinions, and then you have the gall to say that someone else uses poor or incorrect reasoning.

By all means, don't argue this with me. I won't argue it with you either. I was under the impression that you were interested in civil discussion. I apologize for my mistaken assumption.


WEB

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Both of our political parties (Dems and Reps) are completely beholden to Israel. The Democratic Party receives most of the Jewish support in this country, I believe, so you'll never hear them utter a bad word about Israel. Now that the Republican Party is the Christianity party, they've got this whole thing going about how Israel is the promised land for the Jews, and Israel fulfills the Biblical Prophecy of the Rapture, or something like that.

Plus you got neo-cons who are looking to maximize US power and they see Israel as a very useful ally. So, forget it about it. Both parties totally going for Israel.

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Ok, so here we are pointing fingers at each other.

"It was you."

"No, it was YOU."

"No, asshole it was YOU."

.... You say I use "outright bias towards muslims."

.... I say you use "outright bias towards America."

Lets let someone else argue this with you :-) You and I have been around and around about this enough :-) I think you're decent enough that I don't want to get into the same nastiness again LOL

There's GOT to be others that might argue this with you from an educated position.

Thane,

I guess you are trying to be condescending here. Please be good enough to at least leave that to people who do have a bit more on the cap, will you? I mean, you are not exactly brimming with intellect, are you? Your "expertise" on Islam is limited to a handful of articles from Newsmax, so you can't even condescend if you tried. Condescension implies that there could be something beneath you.


WEB

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Formerly W.E.B. Du Bois (you can still call me "WEB")

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Protest Animal Cruelty

Oh good God. Now I'm being condescending but am "not exactly brimming with intellect, are you?" and my "expertise" on Islam is limited to a handful of articles from Newsmax.

This is why I'm not bothering discussing this subject with you :-)

Lets abandon our pissing match now shall we ? This isn't going to encourage any others to try out here :-)

Like I say, don't discuss the subject with me, but I'm not going to pretend that not talking to you is going to represent any loss of potential knowledge for me.

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Formerly W.E.B. Du Bois (you can still call me "WEB")

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Protest Animal Cruelty

Guys! Calm down, it's only the internet.
I tell you what, give me your opinions, and I'll debate with both of you, from opposing positions.
I like to look at things from different points of view.

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... I am surprised at your insolence in writing to me at all. You know, as I know, that I bought this constituency... may God's curse light upon you and may it make your women as open and as free to the excise officers as your wives and daughters have always been to me while I have represented your scoundrel corporation.
I have the honour to be... your obliged humble servant, Anthony Henley
- MPs reply to constituent, mid 1700s