winter6126

I just received a message from China mobil.it said the "Labour Contract law" To come into effect.the economist Zhang wuchang张五常said government did wrong this time.the Labour Contract law cause lazy persons,because the boss can't disfire workers.Zhang also criticized Minimum wage guarantee system,he said Minimum wage guarantee system encroach on private entrepreneur's interests.

Slartibartfas

Does that mean firing people in China is made harder through this new law? Of what nature is this new protection, is it very far reaching?

Minimum wage is something that most European countries know. I fully support them at reasonable levels. It can't be that someone has to have several fulltime jobs in order to survive only at the most fundamental level possible while the upper class can afford to live like a God in France.

With all the due respect to "private entrepreneurs interests", but jobs that resemble more modern slave labor than a fair job can't be in the interest of the society and its my very basic belief that the state should act in the interest of the society, not exclusively in the interest of a rich minority.

Acting in the interest of the society of course means guaranteing a free market (we in Europe have mostly eco-social or social marekt systems which are free market systems that take ecological and social aspects into the equation), but the economy is here to serve the people not the other way round. Thats the important point.


PS:
I think aside of environment, the increasing wealth gap between the Chinese belongs to the very large problems China faces today.

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winter6126

[quote=Slartibartfas;122235]Does that mean firing people in China is made harder through this new law? Of what nature is this new protection, is it very far reaching?
QUOTE]

you are right.for boss,it's difficult to fire a woker now.according to the new labour contract law.if one person works in a facotry/company more than 10 years,the boss must sign an "unlimited time contract" with him,and boss must buy Old-age insurance and medical insurance for him.
in fact.many people were fired this year(the new law come to effect in 1/1/2008).the reason is: they nearly work in company 10 years.boss fired them,then boss needn't sign the "unlimited time contract" with him,and needn't buy Old-age insurance and medical insurance for him.
the "unlimited time contract" is mean one could work in company till retire,if he doesn't make mistake or other reasons,boss can't dismiss him

Slartibartfas

[quote=winter6126;122574]I see. Thanks for the info.

I dont think it is too clever to make such a barrier after lets say 10 years because exactly that happens what you described.

In my opinion people who work should have the chance to get some sort of affordable retirement insurance and health insurance. If this would rise fluently without any large steps over the years firing the worker would be less attractive.

Regarding the protection agsint being fired. I dont support it in this totallity. But I think a certain level of protection would be fine for every worker, I mean a fix set of rules that makes it harder to fire people for example making it obligatory to announce it already a few months before someone is fired, to give him the chance to look out for something new before he is fired, etc.


PS:
Somehow its funny to see that in some regards the European countries seem to be more socialist than China which tries to claim to be communist...

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jaro

Minimum wage might sound like a good idea for the poor or those with social thinking, but in reality it causes some of people to loose jobs. Decision which jobs should disappear should be left on the free market and not on ~300 MEPs that don't understand economics. Instead of having minimum wage, people should be taught to understand free market well from elementary school. If your salary is not satisfactory, you need to look for alternative ways. It seems people need to be taught to rely on themselves not on the state. This system existed before communists came and "deformed" peoples mindset with ideas that state will care for everything. If you domestify a wild animal, it won't survive in wild and will require you to feed it constantly.
In my opinion having minimum wage is completely useless, if you have unemployment benefits. Unemployment benefits alone would push up bottom wages as people would leave those cheap jobs. Unemployment benefits need to depend on location within state. Wouldn't it really be better if an unemployed guy in Austria getting X euros from government would instead get the same salary but from a company while doing a meaningful job? Surely its a very bad salary and the job sucks, but at least he would be working and not living from other peoples work, and not blaming anybody else when unemployment benefits arent increased.

Having to anounce firing of employee X months in advance is not really good for anyone, as employee won't have any time for interviews or looking for a job anyway, and employer will waste money that could be spent on another better qualified employee or invested.

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RightofCenter

the joys of Socialism.....

counterpointing

I think minimum wage is a necessity. Otherwise you have wage slavery, and slavery is considered unethical. I remember when I lived in Arizona, minimum wage was about to go up, and all the restaurants and fast food places cried that the cost of our food there would skyrocket. Guess what, it didn’t. I can still buy a dollar burger. A minimum wage is excellent for the economy.

jaro

How can you have wage slavery if there are unemployment benefits? If unemployment benefits reach certain level, people would automatically leave the cheap jobs. You actually only have to gradually increase unemployment benefits.

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Slartibartfas

With this argument you could argument as far down as to laissez fair capitalism. Is that what you want?
Or do you somewhere draw a border line where you say so far should we go but not further?



No it wouldn't be better. Most people are only unemployed for a shorter period, but also for the others you can expect that they rather go looking for some "alternative" means of earning money than working day in and day out and still be not able to live from it.




Somehow I think those people who lived under communist rule have seen for so long how it doesnt work that they have lost somewhat the view for some means that would make sense if you apply them reasonably and most importantly in reasonable dimensions. Maybe I am ignorant, but I sometimes have the feeling that some people in the formerly communistic countries tumble from the communist extreme into the laissez fair capitalist extreme. Like if the creation of the Unions at the end of the 19th century was completely unjustified and a step back to the pre Union age of capitalism would be something favorable.

A minimum wage is even to be found in rather libertarian European countries. If people work and work and still can't afford basic stuff, than something goes wrong. Don't you think?

Working poor is even more intimidating than being unemployed, because in the latter case you know you need to get a job and something done to get your life in order again. But if you are working poor your work says day in day out to you, your work isn't worth anything.

Economies with minimum wages are neither socialist, nor are they on the brink of collapse. Its something reasonable in my eyes.

Sorry, but I can't follow your argumentation. Why does a person have to be unemployed to be able to look for some work?

Firing someone should not be as easy as moving a weelchair around. On the other side I dont oppose the idea of granting a certain flexibility nonetheless. Many hardcore capitalists simply completely ignore the very important factor of employee motivation. If you have to fear being fired every instance, this will put a stress on the work that is unnecessary and counterproductive. You can watch that. Working places were people feel strongly uncomfortable are also have lower productivity.

Having that said, can people be fired from one hour to the other in the Czech Republic?

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jaro

Nobody is speaking about abolishing unions and allowing children to work. Return to late 19th century capitalism is impossible. But some of its ideas are not necessarily bad.

By saying most people are unemployed for a shorter period you prove that having to wait before firing a person is not really useful, as it takes longer to find a new job than that. You still see it from socialist perspective. It is better for the society if money is paid for doing meaningful work, not for staying at home. Many countries have much higher unemployment rates than Austria, Slovakia and Poland used to have 20%. Does your argument work here? Would you still prefer to pay their unemployment benefits from peoples taxes, rather than by employer?

Drastic measures are needed to force people to work, as they will not do it on their own if they receive high benefits. It is especially true for gypsy minority. In the east, the right wing parties are more pro-reform than in the west, and left wing parties are incompetent. This combination results in slow but steady movement towards laissez fair capitalism.

That is mainly due to strong position of unions and left wing parties. In the east unions have much weaker position than in west.

But unemployment benefits for free destroy the habbit of having to work in order to be able to eat. People become spoilt, rely too much on state and don't seek work if its not directly in their village. Nobody is forcing you to work for wage you don't want. You can always grow food on inherited land, or manufacture something at home that people will buy from you. But people often accept even low wage, because they know it is still better than they would manage on their own. It is not capitalism that produces poverty, it is peoples abilities, stupidity, and to certain degree bad luck.


But why do you need minimum wage if you have unemployment benefits? People won't accept cheap jobs for comparable wage like unemployment benefits.

I expect that most jobs require an interview before signing contract, and if this interview must be conducted personally then you cannot attend if you work until 5PM. Also during your job you shouldn't be looking for a new job.

There is 2 month notice before you are realy fired.

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