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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-20-2007, 03:03 AM
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Roundeye Roundeye is offline
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Originally Posted by joep182 View Post
That's assuming Bush wants Osama found

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." —Washington, D.C., March 13, 2002
He's not going to avoid trying to capture Osama because he said something stupid and that he probably regrets. Be realistic.

The border region of Afghanistan is a son of a bitch. High altitude, dirt roads, moutainous terrain, and all the while you are forced to foot it with all a few hundred pounds of gear and water. Meanwhile the people who are indiginous to that area run up and down the mountains like it's nothing, plus don't they're not encumbered with all the equipment US Forces have to carry.

It sounds easy to just envelop the Taliban in a joint operation, but there are so many problems with that, one being that any plans made with the Pakistanis would be relayed to the ones we're trying to capture before the op ever kicked off by Taliban sympathizers.

It could be done but we'd have to ditch some current shitty policies that don't allow something like this to be possible.
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Old 10-20-2007, 06:46 AM
joep182 joep182 is offline
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Originally Posted by Roundeye View Post
He's not going to avoid trying to capture Osama because he said something stupid and that he probably regrets. Be realistic.

The border region of Afghanistan is a son of a bitch. High altitude, dirt roads, moutainous terrain, and all the while you are forced to foot it with all a few hundred pounds of gear and water. Meanwhile the people who are indiginous to that area run up and down the mountains like it's nothing, plus don't they're not encumbered with all the equipment US Forces have to carry.

It sounds easy to just envelop the Taliban in a joint operation, but there are so many problems with that, one being that any plans made with the Pakistanis would be relayed to the ones we're trying to capture before the op ever kicked off by Taliban sympathizers.

It could be done but we'd have to ditch some current shitty policies that don't allow something like this to be possible.

I am being realistic. If they wanted Bin Laden found would this really be how things developed

"By early January 2002 it was reported that the total number of US ground forces deployed in Afghanistan had grown to nearly 4,000 troops. By late January 2002 the total number of US troops in Afghanistan was reportedly over 4,000, including conventional forces to protect bases, along with engineers, forensic experts and interrogators. By August 2002 there were about 8,000 US troops in Afghanistan."

Operation Enduring Freedom - Order of Battle

Do you reallistically think that amount of troops were ever going to find him ? Bush must have known they never could - either it was intentional that he never wanted him found, or he is incompetent.

You are right when you point out how difficult an operation it is, but surely that's all the more reason why there should have been much more troops sent.
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Old 10-20-2007, 04:17 PM
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Here's something that actually reinforces your point, but I'll explain why this happened.

U.S. Concludes Bin Laden Escaped at Tora Bora Fight (washingtonpost.com)

He slipped through out fingers. I've written up a few things on the constraints and ridiculous rules that we have in the military and why we can't operate effectively. This is one example of what happens because of lame rules. On top of that, we were still somewhat new to this and depending on not only the AMF (Afghan Military Forces) but our other coalition partners. The coalition I can honestly say has done a wonderful job in Afghanistan. The AMF is what the problem was. We tried to let the Afghanis conduct the majority of the fighting at Tora Bora. We learned since then that they have to be escorted, watched and trusted only so far. You'll find pockets of TB sympathizers anywhere and everywhere in Afganistan, and it only takes one who knows the plan to screw everything up by telling the enemy what that plan is.

So if you wonder why our numbers were so low at first in Afghanistan, it's because we didn't think we needed bigger numbers. We had the coalition and we were training up the ANA (Afghan National Army) to do the job for themselves. We didn't want to become an occupying force, policing the nation; we wanted the Afghans to do it for themselves. Our intent was to give them the assistance they needed to accomplish that and get out. But that task turned out to be too much for them to handle, and foreign fighters flooded into Afghanistan for their chance to join in the jihad.

In a nutshell, it's not that we didn't want to capture Osama. We underestimated everything at first, and that cost us our chance at capturing him. We've learned since then, so I doubt it will happen again.
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Old 10-21-2007, 01:18 PM
Dragon Horse Dragon Horse is offline
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I don't understand what they expected to get out of Butto returning...she is corrupt (or more so) than any previous leader and is heavily Westernized. Sure, maybe if she joins the government, some moderate and elites will get behind it, but the main problem is the poor radicals. Butto has 0% sway with those people who are also very supportive of Al Qaeda and other such Islamic radical associations.
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Old 10-21-2007, 07:37 PM
Brother Oz Brother Oz is offline
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To be honest, Bhutto's only purpose is legitimacy in the eyes of the west. If western pro-democracy groups say "Musharraf's a dictator" the US can point to him doing a certain amount of power-sharing with a westernised female former democratically elected Prime Minister. Whether she is actually of any use to his government is pretty irrelevant.
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Old 10-22-2007, 09:11 AM
factfinder factfinder is offline
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Cool Madam Bhutto´s Sweet Revenge ...

After 8 yrs in exile the return of Madam Bhutto, the Iron Lady, was prearranged by the US to consolidate the pro-American Musharraf ´s regime because Bhutto´s Pakistan People´s Party (PPP ) rests very popular in Pakistan …At the same time she is the best hated man by the islamist extremists, al-Qaida and Afghan talibans , bin Ladin´s commanders hiding in the inaccessible caves of Hindu Kuch … She was twice the premier ministre and twice overthrown in the mid mandate to be accused of being corrupted and made to choose between the exile and the prison … Before she boarded the plane back to Pakistan she declared „ I am afraid I will be shot the moment I descend the plane … Her brothers were as well assassinated … however, it may well be, that by her herself …By the Washington´s wish Bhuto should form as the prime minister for the 3rd time a government with the former putchist gen. Musharraf to affront the upsurge of extremist islamism and to keep a watchful eye on the national nuclear weapons in case the islamists should be temptated … The revenge in her case must be sweet when she was called back by the people who had overthrown her twice for the „ incompetence „ …
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