I saw a very professional docu about Shanghai on German television today. It drew a great portray of this city that stands so much as representative for all booming parts of China.

First of all I have to say that it was a very well balanced documentary, it showed the bright and also the dark sides. And as I allready have heard of the bright ones I really was astonihsed and worried by the dark sides.

There are astonishingly many cases in Shanghai where people who owned appartments in older buildings become the target of the local construction company giants. And the plot was the following. There was a case where a woman that worked for the public hand was payed suddenly too less. She could not afford her appartment anymore and was thrown out of it by a mob of workers on the order of construction company. She tried to sue the company and also the city government. She could not find a single lawyer to defend here case.

The reason for that? Rather easy to find. There has been allready a similar case where a couragous lawyer accepted the risk and sued a construction company for illegal mobbying connected with supposed corruption at city governemtn level. The first thing that happened was that a newspaper from Hongkong reported about that story. What happened? Someone was jailed for that, and no not the CEO of the company, it was the laywer for treason. That did not stop the lawyer to continue working on the case and eventually he succeeded to prove his case in front of the court. What happened?

Right, the lawyer was jailed again for an even longer time due to treason. The company did not get any penalty or anything. And the woman of this lawyer as the other woman that was the customer of him have been threatened by the local police that the shall not dare to speak to foreign journalists.

They did. And I can only pray for their lives as only a few months ago there also was a couragous farmer that dared to speak out in front of foreign journalists. This farmer is today physically disabled because he was beaten nearly to death by some anonym people and if not for the outcry in Germany and Europe as a whole he would be dead by now because the hospital refused to treat him at all first.


Perhaps the words of a young chinese fashion designer says it best:
"I studied in Europe. Of course I know that Chinese is an autocratic dicatorship. But I do not care for politics, the country is booming."

most the same case happened in China.I don't know how to explain
there's a sad joke in China: 1950s people love each other,60s people help each other,70s people attack each other,80s people cheat each other,90s people eat each other

the current President Hu Jintao said he want to build a harmonious China cociety.but it seems is difficult to do.China has law,but in most ordinary Chinese eyes,the law serves for the rich and officials,the law is used for control ordinary people,but not used for protect people.

you mentioned the local police threated some people in your post.this is a piece of cake,China police is very notorious in China.we call them "bandit".in most China forums include Xinhua forum,most people complain the unjust society.

China can't change in one day.but i believe China society will be more fair in the future.


this is typical view in China.most Chinese don't like Government,but there's no the better choice for us.so we accept this kind of life.

bad officials conspire with bad business men cause the society being more bad.
I heard this news.this farmer is unlucky.actually,in that year(2004?),the poor farmer were fight with military police with the same reason,it happened in Si Chuan province.Xinhua didn't report this news,but of course,we can get the news from Hong Kong and Taiwan media.

A major problem I see today with China is, that allthough it has very good laws in many parts if not even progressive laws, there is a terrible lack of neutral enforcement. That makes those good laws in fact "dead law".

I am fully aware that a dictatorship has its problem with concepts like an independant justice system. But the leaders of China should in their own interest and the interest of the whole country try at least to create independant courts for sues between two privates.

Furthermore your leaders have to honestly try fighting corruption on lower levels within the communist party and on city level. Its again their very own interest and the interest of the whole country that is at stake.


I do of course have no clear picture of how far the power of the central leaders reach. Lets assume they are not completely corrupted themselves (what I dont want to claim here, as they have achieved so much in the last decade), could they dare to clean up on the lower ranks with the corruption. With a "zero-tollerance" fight against corrupt officials? That would mean that lawyers fighting against corruption are not jailed, but instead the corrupt ones. Or would such a sincere fight lead to a putsh of the party basis against the leadership?

It really seems so. And to be honest, they really have a point here.



In my opinion there are two large issues that will perhaps among others determine the future of China. First of all if China is able to really fight corruption and to establish a really independant justice system (at least as long as the party is not attacked by a case), and on the other hand if China can tackle the huge environmental issue. Currently you grow on credit. Its the credit drawn on your own environment. If you dont start to pay this credit back soon but in exchange take yet another one, China might face a wealthy but dark future.

The Shanghai top party official was recently charged with corruption by the central government. My friends from Shanghai said that it was that official creating very high housing prices and miserable situation for the poor people in Shanghai. I think Hu is going to release some social tension by doing that.

You are very correct about neutral justice system. In my mind, local or provincial neutral justice system should be implemented to fight with the corrupt local officials. The environmental problem is also very severe. However, in China, you can only pray that some central officials to share the same thoughts with you and are willing to implement them from top down.

I hope that helps. Hopefully he is not only a scape goat. Well even if the whole city council should be corrupt he is the boss so he most likely deserves the corruption case anyway.
Lets see if it helps, I would wish it does.
I have heard that the leaders of China are somewhat all together technology freaks. That they are studied engineers. The best would be to let the next generation study at a European university. Because then they would be aware how important a sustainable technology is, and how exciting not only mega projects can be but the transformation of a traditional industrial society to a sustainable one could be.

But I fear your leadership is more attached still to the communist technology hail. The type of thinking that turned the east block into a polluted and contaminated trash hole. Perhaps they might change their views soon enough. I would not deny the possibility for that. Of course what you would need is not a change in the propaganda but actions. The problem here just seems that your leadership does not want to sacrifice any economic growth for your environment.

PS:
I am surprised how realistic you Chinese see the situation. Or that the view from Europe is so similar to what some Chinese think themselves. Thats in strong contrast in comparison of talks between Europeans and Americans. No matter what you tell them, you will either be contested, being shout at, called anti American or simply ignored. jk

No, seriously, would you say your and Winters opinions are representable for Chinese? Or just for those having access to internet sources you government does not like you to see?

Chinese top leaders are all engineers. So, in their minds, any political policy will have pros and cons. There will always be tradeoffs. A good policty would be an optimized one gaining the most with the least price. It sounds like some engineering management. I myself study electrical engineering, so all my classmates are fine with most of the policies in general.

In 1989, those students' activities are all led by those with liberal art majors. We engineers think they are too idealistic . Since the country is booming, most of the people are fine with it, except when your personal interests are treated unfairly. However, those who suffer from injustice is only a small faction of the whole population, so no major social problem has occured yet. But the polarity in China is crossing the alert level, so it is time for the government to do something for the rural residents and urban poor people with better justice for every single person.

When I was in England, I found that English people talk and behave in a way similar to Chinese people, very different from the stereotypes that I had about westerners before. It actually shocked me. I still don't know why exactly I would have that feeling, but I guess that Europeans are in general more open minded and less arrogant than some groups of Americans.

Well, yes, but I have currently the feeling that the severely underestimate the importance of the environment. Something also the best engeneers did until the end of the 70's in Europe. And some still do so here.

The question is how large this part of society is that had no advantage or even had to see how the state or corrupted (local) politician ruined their lifes.
I think one does not get a meaningful picture in China about that.
Of course all in all the developement still will be strongly positive, but the social tensions could become a major problem. No matter if the leaders hid it or not.

Really? I allways though there is a considerable difference between the mentality Chinese in special and Europeans. But I never spoke in real life with Chinese, except Chinese tourists asking for the way.

The environmental theory is that there is a pollution gate level. Below this level, most of the pollution can be recovered. Above this level, it gets permanently destroyed. Europe, America and Japan suffer from severe pollution decades ago, but now it recovers in general. So, I guess for those officials, they do not think the pollution in China is approaching that gate level. They wanna sacrifice environment for economy now, and then recover the environment afterwards. I am just worried how close Chinese pollution is approaching the gate level. Also, since China is so populous, the environment will be naturally worse than western countries.