China, the land where success rules, not law - Page 2 - Political Forum

Slartibartfas · 11-07-2006, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

The environmental theory is that there is a pollution gate level. Below this level, most of the pollution can be recovered. Above this level, it gets permanently destroyed. Europe, America and Japan suffer from severe pollution decades ago, but now it recovers in general. So, I guess for those officials, they do not think the pollution in China is approaching that gate level. They wanna sacrifice environment for economy now, and then recover the environment afterwards. I am just worried how close Chinese pollution is approaching the gate level. Also, since China is so populous, the environment will be naturally worse than western countries.

I fear they are basing all their hopes on a illusion. This theory of "gate levels" for sure has a valid core, but in fact is a terrible and invalid oversimplification of reality that won't work that way.

It all depends on the toxics and nature of contaminations. There are some that simply won't recover no matter how low the concentration. We have them in Europe too, they won't go away anymore. Other things you can recover, but what does that mean? The expenses are so terribly high that even rich western countries have problems affording it. And Europe is comparably small to China + our pollutions and contaminations are from an era where not nearly as many dangerous substances in remotely comparable dimensions were handled.

You should face it, some damage will be possibly recovered again. But if you continue the road you are heading you will have much stuff that simply will remain or ruin your economy even as rich one if you try to do it away. And some simply will resist any possible effort no matter what.

And of course moreover you have to see the global perspective too.

The Chinese engineers at the lead are for sure underestimating the consequences of ruining the environment today. If they would see it in all its effects, they would evaluate it fundamentally differently. Every debt you make you will pay back a hundred times afterwards. It might be cheaper to take conventional credit for you growth than taking it on the environment, that often refuse to accept your payback at all on several issues.
Believe me, you will regret it one day.

Luke · 11-08-2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I fear they are basing all their hopes on a illusion. This theory of "gate levels" for sure has a valid core, but in fact is a terrible and invalid oversimplification of reality that won't work that way.

It all depends on the toxics and nature of contaminations. There are some that simply won't recover no matter how low the concentration. We have them in Europe too, they won't go away anymore. Other things you can recover, but what does that mean? The expenses are so terribly high that even rich western countries have problems affording it. And Europe is comparably small to China + our pollutions and contaminations are from an era where not nearly as many dangerous substances in remotely comparable dimensions were handled.

You should face it, some damage will be possibly recovered again. But if you continue the road you are heading you will have much stuff that simply will remain or ruin your economy even as rich one if you try to do it away. And some simply will resist any possible effort no matter what.

And of course moreover you have to see the global perspective too.

The Chinese engineers at the lead are for sure underestimating the consequences of ruining the environment today. If they would see it in all its effects, they would evaluate it fundamentally differently. Every debt you make you will pay back a hundred times afterwards. It might be cheaper to take conventional credit for you growth than taking it on the environment, that often refuse to accept your payback at all on several issues.
Believe me, you will regret it one day.

I am supporting any reasonable environmental policies. In China, if the pollution is immediate and detrimental, the government will deal with it. If not, then it is usually submerged under the economic figures. About 6 years ago, the government took a series of policies to close many of those paper factory and chemical factory along the rivers. In the more developed coastal areas now, there are many semiconductor, PCB board or computer companies that destroy the rivers. The smell in the air is terrible in those towns, but people there are rich and not well educated, so their environmental conscience is very low.

Slartibartfas · 11-09-2006, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luke

I am supporting any reasonable environmental policies. In China, if the pollution is immediate and detrimental, the government will deal with it. If not, then it is usually submerged under the economic figures. About 6 years ago, the government took a series of policies to close many of those paper factory and chemical factory along the rivers. In the more developed coastal areas now, there are many semiconductor, PCB board or computer companies that destroy the rivers. The smell in the air is terrible in those towns, but people there are rich and not well educated, so their environmental conscience is very low.

Its not just about which type of factories you have there, but which regulations those factories have to obey to protect the environemnt. You know, we have paper, chemical and steel factories in Austria too.