Chinese scientists should be ashamed - Page 3 - Political Forum

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 03-01-2007, 12:53 PM

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

WEB, what merit does the new experiment at CERN near Geneva have? It costs more than just one fortune, (I think the costs for building a few nuclear power plants) and will lead to no direct product or anything else one could make money from. Only some spin offs, but thats all.

From what I can tell, CERN is a particle acclerator that smashes atomic and subatomic particles into each other, ripping them apart and thus possibly showing us even smaller particles which could be the basis for atoms, thus giving us a better understanding of atoms. Of course this can be useful for any number of things like nuclear power, fusion power, and the entire field of chemistry and physics.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Do you think Chinese scientists do this just for fun. Because model planes are so hard to get in China?

I think it's possible that they could just be screwing around. My gut instinct on reading the story was China was saying "hey, look at me!"

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

I can very well understand that the scientists did not publish the specific merits. They simply do not want to share with the rest of the world.

No, you don't need to share your method, you can say why your study or experiment is valuable though.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Neurobiology is an increasingly important field of biology. And one important part of it is to find out how one con interact with the brain directly. To try this right from the start with the most difficult brains is nonsense. You won't get much answers. But if you start with the more segmented bird brains, you can study first attempts. You can learn which basic rules such an interaction can follow. You can also improve the technology itself that is used as interface on real experiments, not just in theory. And when this field is mastered you can go on, and try to find a way to more complex organized brains.

Yeah, I guess I would agree with that. There could be some scientific merit here. However, I was responding to winter, and winter wasn't arguing scientific merit. He turned it into an East vs West thing, which I was replying to.

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Is it so difficult to see a scientific merit? Or what do you consider a merit? I hope that does not limit to a possible product that has to be available within the next 5 years on the market. Thats hardcore capitalist science.

You just can't get off of those stereotypes can you, Slarti?

For me, only things which have the possibility to explode other human beings has scientific merit. Only bombs, missiles, tanks and fastfood has scientific merit, oh and oil too. You got any oil in Austria?

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

(Necessary as well but not the sole kind we need). The increase of knowledge and know how is at least as important in science. And those experiments clearly serve that purpose.

I would not even surprised if those experiments would also have the goal of military applications. Of course China will never tell you that. Understanably, as the US or any other country would not either.

Well, I think there could be some scientific implications for this. Some benefit to the scientific community. I merely reject the logic of "well some country in the West did it once, so that means we can do it now" or "you can't look down on my country now that we're fucking around with the brains of pidgeons."

Slartibartfas · 03-01-2007, 01:53 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

From what I can tell, CERN is a particle acclerator that smashes atomic and subatomic particles into each other, ripping them apart and thus possibly showing us even smaller particles which could be the basis for atoms, thus giving us a better understanding of atoms. Of course this can be useful for any number of things like nuclear power, fusion power, and the entire field of chemistry and physics.

Actually yes. They are trying to prove the existence of the Higgs Bosom. Thats the stuff that causes gravity. If they should really succeed in that, it would be a gigantic step for the whole science of physics. Something to write history.
Well if they succeed. It might as well enter the history for the most expensive waste of money if they erred. No one knows yet, but they soon will find out (well at least they will soon start the experiment)

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No, you don't need to share your method, you can say why your study or experiment is valuable though.

Hm, China has traditionally a very rigid information policy on what it considers to be important. Just think about their space program. They could share far more information with the international community without much of an risk, but actually they share literally none at all.

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Yeah, I guess I would agree with that. There could be some scientific merit here. However, I was responding to winter, and winter wasn't arguing scientific merit. He turned it into an East vs West thing, which I was replying to.

So acutally we can consider this issue to be tackled then. Can we?

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You just can't get off of those stereotypes can you, Slarti?

For me, only things which have the possibility to explode other human beings has scientific merit. Only bombs, missiles, tanks and fastfood has scientific merit, oh and oil too. You got any oil in Austria?

You will laugh, we actually have oil fields.

An Austrian cabaretist some years ago. Where Bush is getting nervous and asks his intelligence service if there are any nuclear activities or oil in Austria and he gets as answer we have even something far more dangerous: Austria is the major global producer of "KERNÖL" (sadly this joke works out neatly only in German, lets supppose in English this might sound a bit like "nucleus oil". Which means at the same time "nuclear oil" as well as "seeds oil"). Having that heard he immediately invades Austria with storm troops to stop the threat through Austrian "Kernöl" production.

Hey but you come too late anyway. We gave the most of the oil to Russia already for free. (Thats no joke actually). OK that alone might be just one reason more to invade... after Austrian weapons being found in Iraq and Iran, Austria opposing joining the NATO, Austria sending treasonary agents to take over governors positions and soon the presidents office (

), Austria launching constantly World Wars, ... and last but not least, Austrians that seem to show not the slightest respect for Paris Hilton (but still follow her on every step and with hundreds of reports her) and not even for Bush.

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Well, I think there could be some scientific implications for this. Some benefit to the scientific community. I merely reject the logic of "well some country in the West did it once, so that means we can do it now" or "you can't look down on my country now that we're fucking around with the brains of pidgeons."

Agreed, that does not work.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 03-02-2007, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Hm, China has traditionally a very rigid information policy on what it considers to be important. Just think about their space program. They could share far more information with the international community without much of an risk, but actually they share literally none at all.

I doubt China had much to contribute. They were launching their astronauts in 1960's era technology. They launched him, he did an orbit and then came back. Not much to be learned there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

So acutally we can consider this issue to be tackled then. Can we?

Yes, we can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

You will laugh, we actually have oil fields.

An Austrian cabaretist some years ago. Where Bush is getting nervous and asks his intelligence service if there are any nuclear activities or oil in Austria and he gets as answer we have even something far more dangerous: Austria is the major global producer of "KERNÖL" (sadly this joke works out neatly only in German, lets supppose in English this might sound a bit like "nucleus oil". Which means at the same time "nuclear oil" as well as "seeds oil"). Having that heard he immediately invades Austria with storm troops to stop the threat through Austrian "Kernöl" production.

Hey but you come too late anyway. We gave the most of the oil to Russia already for free. (Thats no joke actually). OK that alone might be just one reason more to invade... after Austrian weapons being found in Iraq and Iran, Austria opposing joining the NATO, Austria sending treasonary agents to take over governors positions and soon the presidents office (

), Austria launching constantly World Wars, ... and last but not least, Austrians that seem to show not the slightest respect for Paris Hilton (but still follow her on every step and with hundreds of reports her) and not even for Bush.

Well I think Austria is best invaded with CIA Agents. We can just disappear Austrians we don't like.

Slartibartfas · 03-02-2007, 02:36 AM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I doubt China had much to contribute. They were launching their astronauts in 1960's era technology. They launched him, he did an orbit and then came back. Not much to be learned there.

That even proves my point of above, about an unnecessarely strict information policy, as it is typical for autocratic regimes.

Nonetheless, I would recommend to you, not to make the error to underestimate and belittle the Chinese also not with their space program. It seems your government does not. You know, everyone starts out small. Japanese cars once were also not much more than copies...

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Well I think Austria is best invaded with CIA Agents. We can just disappear Austrians we don't like.

Why thinking so small scale? Just nuke ...

Luke · 03-02-2007, 05:23 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I doubt China had much to contribute. They were launching their astronauts in 1960's era technology. They launched him, he did an orbit and then came back. Not much to be learned there.
Yes, we can.
Well I think Austria is best invaded with CIA Agents. We can just disappear Austrians we don't like.

I don't see that there are anything to blame with the experiments. If China can buy some technology from outside, they would buy it. If the west does not sell, like the aerospace or weapon technology, then China has to make it ourselves. China is not in the position to let others learn. China is just catching up.

Pigeon experiment is good for neuroscience. I don't see why China has to tell America every details. America does not tell China all its secrets. These types of neuro experiments shall be emphasized and continued.

Troianii · 03-02-2007, 05:27 PM

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Originally Posted by Luke

Pigeon experiment is good for neuroscience. I don't see why China has to tell America every details. America does not tell China all its secrets. These types of neuro experiments shall be emphasized and continued.

They do if they want to stay on our good side, which is essential to their growth.

You see, the difference is that America's secrets aren't a threat to America, China's secrets may very well be a threat to America.

Luke · 03-02-2007, 05:33 PM

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Originally Posted by Troianii

They do if they want to stay on our good side, which is essential to their growth.

You see, the difference is that America's secrets aren't a threat to America, China's secrets may very well be a threat to America.

American secrets aren't threats to China??? U r kidding me!!! The major reason why Chinese people overwhelmingly support fast military growth is because of American threats. America is constantly threatening China with nuclear weapons, and has many covert programs with Japan.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 03-02-2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

That even proves my point of above, about an unnecessarely strict information policy, as it is typical for autocratic regimes.

Nonetheless, I would recommend to you, not to make the error to underestimate and belittle the Chinese also not with their space program. It seems your government does not. You know, everyone starts out small. Japanese cars once were also not much more than copies...

I need not belittle what is already little. China still endeavours to put someone on the moon, something we did 40 years ago.

As far as what the government said, you actually put value on the fear mongering and lies propagated by neo-cons?

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Why thinking so small scale? Just nuke ...

True.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · 03-02-2007, 07:35 PM

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Originally Posted by Luke

I don't see that there are anything to blame with the experiments. If China can buy some technology from outside, they would buy it. If the west does not sell, like the aerospace or weapon technology, then China has to make it ourselves. China is not in the position to let others learn. China is just catching up.

Pigeon experiment is good for neuroscience. I don't see why China has to tell America every details. America does not tell China all its secrets. These types of neuro experiments shall be emphasized and continued.

OK, well let the neuro expriments be emphasized and continued. US efforts to keep China separated with Taiwan shall be emphasized and continued, as will alliances between Japan and India against China.

The one comment you made in your post that is germane to the subject is "pidgeon experiment is good for neuroscience." You don't elaborate on it though.

Luke · 03-02-2007, 09:05 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

OK, well let the neuro expriments be emphasized and continued. US efforts to keep China separated with Taiwan shall be emphasized and continued, as will alliances between Japan and India against China.

The one comment you made in your post that is germane to the subject is "pidgeon experiment is good for neuroscience." You don't elaborate on it though.

America has been doing those efforts for like 60 years!! What is your point?