First of all you are wasting your time debating with Chinese supporters, it seems they take any form of critism of China and the Communist party very personally. Which i think is a sign of low self esteem, to them truth and facts do not matter, they are desperately trying to protect there personal image.

I have to agree with you. I got into a debate with several of them on another forum. They are "die hard," aren't they? It is a sign of low self-esteem I think. Anyway, I eventually did start to get through to a couple of them. I found a link to a translation of the Bill of Rights in Chinese here and asked them to read it. They thanked me and suddenly became more positive after that.

Shortly after that, they all disappeared from the forum. I always wondered if the government was monitoring them and shut off their access when they started to become friendly with people who were criticizing the Chinese government.

"die hard", yes, i agree, i am die hard, I know the Bill of Rights, <权利法案>, i know western countries have more alleged democracy and human rights than we have now, but the situation has historical and current reasons, we are making efferts to do better!
I know what you want to hear is that our gov is not good, socialism is not good, i am sorry although our gov is centralized and they control many of political issues, i still support our gov, now only a centralized gov can keep China stable and united, if it is not the current CCP, there will also be an other CCP to get the regime.
When criticizing China, please think the problems on the stand of chinese views not just on western views.

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

A little strange! Chinese supporters? in your eyes only chinese opposers are reasonable to talk?
We support our gov not for the personal image, chinese have alreay had no personal image after the culture revolution.

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

Agreed, they're pretty creepy. They all say the exact same things, commit the exact same fallacies, have the exact same strategies to deviate from the main argument and are all incredible dismissive of criticism. I would be too if I was the only party in China, trying to legitimize my rule by always being right.

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Agree! All the same things we do are just what the critics never really think about.

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

Good. And I support you in those efforts and wish you great success. And I also admit there is hypocrisy in Western countries, as their corrupt leadership is always seeking to destroy what freedoms they have in favor of more centralized control, and that is wrong.

Your government is corrupt and, no, socialism (collectivism) is not good and does not create prosperity. Prosperity is created by human beings laboring in freedom. The Chinese (like all human beings on earth) need liberty, not more government control.

Your government is corrupt, but then so is the U.S. government is many ways. The difference is that a knowledgeable American can confront his own government in the legal system based on the freedoms guaranteed to them in the de jure Republic under the Constitution. He or she may not win the case, but at least they have a chance, and they won't be killed for doing so. Whereas the Chinese cannot even publicly protest their government without risking longterm imprisonment and/or death.

You assume that any new government you could replace the current government with would be as bad as the CCP. That is a false assumption. A belief like that sounds defeatist in nature.

Libertarianism is not an exclusive Western view:

"A country may be governed with justice,
And a war may be won with cunning,
But people can only be mastered by following them.
How can this be known?
By looking!
The more people are controlled, the poorer they become;
The poorer they become, the more restless they get;
the more restless they get, the more forcefully they are restrained.

When people are forcefully restrained, their defiance becomes ingenious.
And the more ingenious their defiance, the stranger are the things that happen.

Now when strange things begin to happen, laws and regulations become stricter;
Then stricter laws and regulations mean more criminals and fugitives.
Soon everyone is either a criminal or a fugitive,
And no one can untangle the mess.

Therefore,
The sage does nothing and people govern themselves,
Provokes no one and people are peaceful,
Does not interfere and people prosper,
Is without desire and people fulfill themselves.

The more people are controlled, the less contented they become.
But when will leaders understand the significance of this?"

-- Lao Tzu, tr. Ray Grigg; stanza 57-58 (trad.), 20-21 (MaWangTui)

Sorry, but that's just dumb. Maybe there's a subset of China supporters that are creepy, but to generalise that without qualification...

That could be said about any nation, I think. I find, for example, that if you criticise the USA many Americans take it very personally. I think many nations have a nationalist element, and many nations have large numbers of people that are not expert on the faults of their country, and the internet encourages aggressive mouthing off.

In the case of China, much of the criticism that ones sees of China is ill-informed. It's not surprising that gets people's back up.

The Dao is absolutely NOT a basis for government.

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No Fear No Hate No Pain No Broken Hearts

I think people shall just have to learn the hard way about the value of debating with "Chinese supporters." That being said, this thread is contrary to the spirit of this forum, which does not include jamming posters of this forum into categories and then running them over with a bus.

Thread closed.


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"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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