chaochao

I didn't think western way is wrong, it seems work well in western countries, i just mean those western ways don't suit China's actual situation, I think since I come here to post, I never said that western countries should implement China's way, but it seems that there are some others are always saying china should use western way! Who is nationalist! I just support our own way, and I don't ask others to use our way, if I should oppose our way to be an un-natinalist, I would rather be a nationalist!

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

Slartibartfas

It might be interesting to know what "western concepts" you refer to in specific.

GlobalSmiles

Ive made this point n other threads, I'll make it here again. China is growing fast economically and militarily, it has to rid itself of its old Maoist ways or its going to stoke the fears of WWIII. Nationalist thinking like this on both sides will certainly lead us down that road.

We aren't asking you to free Tibet tomorrow, we are asking that you free your society sooner rather then later, as a whole. Believe it or not it will only strengthen your country further.

chaochao

OH! GOD! "old Maoist ways", friend, how much do you know about modern China, extreme Maoist has been abandoned since 1978!
I also have said that for many times, democratic society can't be achieve in one day, any reform, no matter economic or democratic, it will affect many other things, China has a rather large population, any unsound reform may bring about rather bad results, it is sure we need to reform our politics, no one deny that. Western countries spent hundreds of years to develop its democracy since the end of feudal system, so today their people are proud of their democracy, but new China has just established for less than 60 years, and the actual reform just began after 1978! So we can't exact our gov can make everything perfect in short time, managing a country is rather difficult than we just debate freely here!

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

smallpox

The only thing that works well in China is the economy and it has only started doing well with "western-like" economic reforms if you MUST call it that.
The government in China is a failure, yes.
And even that economic development will be short lived unless governmental reforms.

How many times have I stated that the main thing about democracy is accountability? But no, you don't listen, you just pretend I have this argument because I'm a so called westerner and you have no idea on the workings of the system. I'm not asking you not to go deep, going deep would be to stay relevant; you're flying off to far away planets, away from the surface, by always diverting the response to another country. That is not at all going deep with anything.
Yes I am anti socialist, so is the majority of the world including China (most firms in China are privately own and THEY run the economy)
You should change you constitution like England did, or Canada, or Japan, or the US or hell any country. Russia is doing much better now than it was before the Gorbachev reforms. And even then, it's pretty far from a Washington consensus or a real democracy, but still, you get the picture.

Then how come you can't argue against the fact that democracy IS stability? Unification is not at all important in a liberal society. You don't need it, you just cling to this ideology and have forgotten why.
When you have a democratic process that lets people voice their opposition more efficiently in a civil manner, then there are no need for violent riots. That's the reason the CCP allows some limited votes to make farmers feel happy -- there were too many riots in the country-side. Even the CCP has to concede to these blunt facts.
But nationalism is always an obstacle to progress.
And SUSTAINABLE economic development is done through a democracy. Authoritarian governments have never lasted, including every single dynasty and historical precedents anywhere, because their economic growth in the long run cannot surpass that of democracies. I stated several examples of how centralized planning has failed to answer the environmental issues and economic devastation for some. All ignored on the basis that "this country did that".

chaochao

Woo, smallbox, I think we have entire different towards country, history and democracy, I think we can't convince each other by this debates, if you think our system can't sustain and will block economic growth, i think only time will convince, I just say one thing, our gov is more and more of be accountability, maybe they don't do well now, but they will do better in future, progress needs time! You said I diverted issues to other countries, I think you may misunderstood, I just took others' examples to explain my opinion, just comparison, if no comparison, we have no need to disscuss China. I think when other countries(sorry i refer to other countries again) criticize China, they should also compare their things with things of China.

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

smallpox

Do I need to compare China to other countries every second sentence? No, because I know what, how and why a working system works a certain way. You on the other hand can't go that deep. It doesn't matter what others do, when discussing China. You could say the US kills every babies in the world, what the CCP is doing is still horribly wrong -- there's no comparison to be made. I don't know why you can't get this.
Look at the environmental disasters in China. Economics is the study of allocating resources. There are no resources without an environment.
Of course, you have managed to avoid every major issue with the CCP with those pointless and meaningless comparisons.

chaochao

the working system in your eyes is just the system you like! "It doesn't matter what others do, when discussing China", that is also why most people do not like foreigners' criticism, other countries are also making mistakes, but critics only blame China because China use different system, so others' wrong can be ignored when discussing China.

It seems no matter what and how others do, China can only do worse than them, do not compare China with them, because China use different system, so at the very beginning China is wrong.

environmental disasters and problems acutally exist in China and the situation in some area is very bad, although gov are always making efforts to make up that via economic and legal supervision, but due to the local protectionism and unsound implement of related regulations and laws, environmental situation is still serious in China! But please give China time to resolve that, it is unavoidable to affect the nature with the industrialization. I am sorry I discuss other again, with the emergence of the industrial revolution, western countries also ever experienced environmental problems, but I admire you have done very well now, so believe China will also do well in future!

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!

smallpox

What are you talking about? When someone critizes Canada, I address the issue. I don't say: "But China has no freedom of speech" if someone criticizes the Quebec separation issue. It would make no sense at all. Why would the opposite make any more sense?
It's not the system I like, it's the system that works. There's no denying it, even the CCP is forced to reform towards it -- although it'll never admit it.
Others' wrongs don't matter when the CCP does something wrong, just like the CCP's wrong does not matter when the Bush Administration is under fire.
"Bush, most of the people believe the War in Iraq should end, what is your response?"
"Well, the War in Iraq isn't so bad, in China they have no elections at all."
Does that respond to the issue? No.
Does it make the Bush administration look any better? No.
Does it relate at all to the question? No.
Does it even make sense? No.

China uses a wrong system and your try your hardest to make it seem right out of blind patriotism. You have a pretty hard job, I'll give you that much.


Look at the chopstick issue, in 7.5 years, nothing happened. Have a system that is efficient. In a decentralized democracy, those affected by desertification would have voted against the development of wood industries long before the CCP in Beijing would have realised that there's an issue there. The CCP is not omnipotent, the people are. People are smart enough to make their own decisions.

chaochao

Haha, yes, when a America criticize Canada you surely don't say "But China has no freedom of speech", but if I criticize Canadian huam rights, you are sure you don't say that?

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借我三千虎贲，复我浩荡中华! 汉旗指处，望尘逃遁！敢犯我中华天威者，虽远必诛!