Wow, you include so much here and it also goes so deep!

So you, like myself were around to know about TS1989, but you were in China so had a more first hand experience. Can you write a little about your experience of this.

Now all the stuff you then go into and what you believe you found in the bible is interesting and very deep.

Marx himself wanted people to be free of the brainwashing and be 'free conscious creative people'. He saw early industrial society as slavery.

But what you seem to be talking about here and have done before is twofold.

1. Not being given freedom of information and
2. Your inner self not being respected.

You will find that while there is an enormous amount of material for people to read in 'free societies', Governments within them are not immune to spreading misinformation also. The difference is that if people take the time, they can usually find out what is really going on. That is why democracies are to a large extent only as good as the people within them 'take the time to become aware'.

The inner issue is also one that I find really interesting but also one which you would be wrong to believe everyone in the west is highly in tune with - would that it were so then we would have no more need of wars!!

Nor do I believe that this is always addressed by religion. We have a form of counseling here 'Rogerian Counseling' which has at it's core the belief that we have all constructed a 'false self' through our experiences and social conditioning and that this cuts us off from our inner resources and genuine self.

The Buddha I think believed something similar when he talks of ego and when he said 'Put no truth above the deepest truth you know within yourself'

but here you are talking about spiritual things, not necessarily even things that are religious and although people are without doubt at liberty to express themselves and to even work to be more in touch with their inner selves, the extent to which people are interested in their inner being varies enormously.

Being in touch with our inner self is however the thing that makes us feel most alive and so could well go with your idea that to not acknowledge this leads to a kind of slavery.

I find it hard not to believe ideas on just a collective will not change now that you have what I heard described the other night as 'raw capitalism'. I also suspect this will make more people aware of the need for human rights. I don't think a collective system will work all that well with capitalism.

I am not the greatest believer in capitalism. But if you just have raw capitalism then that leaves the way wide open for the greatest abuse and corruption possible. Some people are going to be a lot richer than others because that is how capitalism works.

However, it is essential to have certain other human rights firmly in place. Otherwise eventually you will get riots and so on, but now I think I read somewhere that this kind of activity is on the yearly increase now in China.

China is going to have to start letting people become more educated. It simply will not be able to endure access with the outside world unless it does it. I wondered for instance when I heard that TS1989 had disappeared from the history books how people could believe anything at all and I think this is a very real problem.

You do worry me a bit though if you believe that everyone outside China is interested in love or even that every Christian is. I like your interest in the spiritual side of life and believe that can be achieved anywhere!!!!!

Like I've said before, people need to be exposed to information and different ideas before they can even begin to think about them.

I have asked you further up to let me have your experience of TS. At that time it seemed that some people in government were interested in Democracy. I'm imaging that that was why the students were allowed to study different ideas. Would that be right and then the hardliners, either because they were so used to controlling everything, or perhaps because they were afraid of losing their own positions reacted in the horrifying way it did.

I am curious about your head of state going around visiting victim's and telling them the Party is going to see they are alright. I have a suspicion it is partly to impress the outside world. It is fascinating because I looked at one of the news sites Cindy6 recommended one day and they were talking about how they would need to start acting in the way 'westerners' expected...I'd say the sort of thing he is doing now.

That's what all our politicians get up to as well as kissing as many babies as they can get their hands on, but it does give another message to people. It gives the message that the Party should be there to meet people's needs, so it is not impossible that something as simple as this might begin to get people thinking that they should be listened to.

I think it is very hard if you know something and everyone else believes something else. Often no matter how hard you tell them they will not believe you.

So how do you think China is going to be able to change and people are going to become more aware? The lack of awareness of these rich Chinese was quite frankly amazing.

Now as regards our health service. I don't think there is any likelihood of us giving it up any time soon. It isn't perfect but I can't see the British people being willing to give up having medical treatment at the point of need to all people. I'm not aware of it killing anyone any more than people die by mistake in other countries. People pay for the health service through a deduction in their pay. People who earn more money pay more. This seems fair.

Improved it always needs, but ended, I don't think so.

I think it's important to try not to insult people because if you do they just clam up even more and respond to the insult rather than what you are trying to say. If that is how people understand it in China, if you are saying that this is the way people generally talk, then I guess it is alright, but if it is insulting to people in China, they may be more interested in what you are saying if you find different words.

No insulting people is not a weapon. It backfires.

Why do you want people to feel shameful and guilty? I don't think it works. Maybe in Chinese culture it is the way, because I remember on our tv series on Chinese schools, seeing a child being humiliated in order to teach the class not to misuse their rubbers, but I don't think it is good to make people feel shameful or guilty over what they think.

You need to allow them to think what they think and try and get the message across that whatever you are trying to say is better, more true or whatever. That is you need to win with your argument, not emotional blackmail!!



Well communism has never been in existence in the way Marx imagined. Certainly for the time being that is Utopian. Communism as envisaged by Marx can never be gained by force.

Food is the essential, so in that way it is the most important thing for absolutely everyone. Food, water, clothing, shelter these are absolute necessities. Once people have these necessities they can start to think of other things.

You now have so many people becoming very rich. Getting rich however is an interesting thing. At first people love it. Then they realize it is a bit empty. Then they look for inner fulfillment.

Other people unfortunately look to have control over people. Wanting to control another person is always a sign of not coming from your inner self.

We are getting into book size posts here!! Feel free to just answer just what is most important to you!

I feel I should just make a note here that yellow has a very specific meaning in the Chinese language, and it doesn't always involve color...

Thank you. I understand johnlss to be saying that it is a term which is used because the Emperor was associated with the color yellow and that people needed to be subservient to him, obeying him like slaves and thinking the same thoughts as he wanted?

Would you say then that this is a general term used among the Chinese to describe people who just follow authority without thinking?

What about the term 'information pig farm'? Is this a general term used by Chinese people and could you give me a clearer description of what it means.

many thanks

Well, the dictionary definition:

Don't know about "information pig farm."

This thread is giving me all sorts of problems, because of the subject matter at hand... (in case you're interested, proxy servers don't solve everything, because there's still the service provider inbetween the server and you, which can still filter out certain terms.)

With or without the yellow color, people are slavery of Chinese emperor.
The YELLOW color is only for Royal family in Chinese Emporer time.It is forbiden to be used or associated with his slavery people.
In Today's China, press and media, organization and political party, assembly, protest, etc many things are forbiden to our chinese people. That is the basic point we used the word YELLOW to describe today's dictators in CHINA.
Obey or not, it is forbiden to slavery to even touch it.
otherwise, you are in jail or killed by YELLOW associated Emperor or Dictators.

No, it is an newly developed private terms, no defination in any chinese dictionery.

The word "information Pig Farm" was first be used by Prof. Jiao Goubiao, whom was fired from Beijing University after used this terms to attack Chinese Propaganda department ,and praised US army invasion Iraqi.

That makes a lots of differnt.
Democracy is the display of freedom,which comes from inside ,not by given.
My experience is nothing important for others in T.S, and we should never forget that specific time and background, which people trust government as believers trust GOD.
unforuntately ,people do not know, it is a killer gods, Due to the lacky of information or misinformation propaganda.

Religion just an word to describe the state of our mind. With Philosophy and logical reasoning,no body can deny they have no religion: those whom believe in nothing or anything is also a kind of religion.


If we know the nature of capitalism ,or raw capitalism which is orginated from our basic reaction of greedy and need for surive in this world,then we will automatically develop the system or means to adopt it and survive in it .
It is nature's law,without no differnce with ancient time when most of us are just hunters,or fishman and farmers...

it can be evil ,it can be holy, as the knife in our daily life.


Education can means anything. It is always been done in China.
Before 1980s, it has been done by deny people's rights to learn,to acquire knowledge with all kinds of government propaganda and movement,combined with hunger and terror; it was an traditional slavery education system.
Today, they only allow one answer, or allow one mind to think and speak in public.By keeping people's mind filled with their preach, and lost its ablility to make any personal judgement.
This kind of education is also been practiced in Democracy countries, i observed.

I would like to say that self-teaching ablility is more important than eduation from the authority, independent and diversity is the only possible creative and best posisble conflicts-damage controlled method for our future..

I known it is not,Bible already told me so. The key is that Bible preach love as the most important item in HIS education.
For me, believer and Christian have some major different.

Of 'cos, looking at computers, only the software can help most to keep its function normal and perfect! hehe



you can not make people play the game beyond its computer's installed software and / or word and terms system which can describe it. During that time, democracy is the only terms to improve Chinese political system for all most all of us chinese intellectuls, but the arms , guns and tanks is also the only idea of those few dictators can understand to deal with this situation.
You are interesting with my story in T.S or just my understanding of it now, or during that moment?
I would perfer to believe that is the only way they can express their sympath to our people.
They already lost all their personal affection fuction as human during their life service in CCP Yellow minded cult. Actually,they are those whom should be mercy and care of by our Chinese.More than those quke victim.
Exactly what's you said.
Even the empty promise is giving people impress that the YELLOW is in control of everything,even in this horrible quke, and there is nothing YELLOW can not deal with....


You are talking about at two people, group1, those involved into this quke, lost thier life and relatives ; group 2 ,those not involved like group 1.
With this trick being played, Group 1's voice only be can sent to YELLOW, i am not sure YELLOW will lisen or not, their suffers and angry will be kept in its lowest voice possible there, while group 2 will stop asking or speak any more.They will think YELLOW is Mighty GOD more powerful than them and know anything , doing anything to help.
proof: The local TV and news at Chengdu and sichuan coverage with daily 24 hrs in depths reports about this quke, while CCTV and others are not allowed to cover it freely.

You just keeping preach them, and the rest leave it to GOD.
No one but God can help ,if people do not want to use his own mind, eye, ear and mouth.

"having medical treatment at the point of need to all people" ,is it sounds the same as communism promise to" have everything at the point of need to all people"?
you are trade your health freedom for the fake promise, which can only be realized with enough to too much health service at the point you can waste it as air, i do not think it is an cost even for your rich country can afford.
Provided you give up your mathmatic accuracy account on those service, and turns to YELLOW's mentality of makeup beauty of this system.
You patient will have to wait sometime months to get an treat appointment ,i read the news said.
In our childhood, we belive we are the most happy country on the earth,and all the other suffer in hell of your sinful capitalism system.

Insult and respect is an dual way traffic. example: on flight from CHina to muslim countries,
only HALA meal serviced to please or respect,or not to insult muslim, but we are chinese and love pork so much, why do not they respect our habit and favore, and do not think it is an insult to us? is it just be 'cos we are not voice our compliant, or we just with more tolerance?
Ony mercey and respect with each others,this can be solved.


i would take it as an blackmail come with care and love.hehe.

"Teeth for teeth, blood for blood" is an hardware or phisical solution to solve the damage compensate issue between people, and to make people feel shameful and guilty is from inside .Which is more civilized solution ,i believe.

Truth in its nuke appearance sometime shocks people alots, but still better than comstic truth or sweet lies.
It is very hard on internet like this to convence people the truth is truth, with an comfortable way for them. that is the bad side of internet.

Anyway,argument is not to win from others,but to make people think.
truth and facts will never lost,if you win in any argument,it is not you and my victory,it is the truth and facts.
IT is both hardware and software make an computer be computer, same applied to humanbeing.
Essentials and God are two kinds of service for an man to be a man.
it seems that you also applied the same logical of YELLOW on this issue of democracy and econmical development.
Is that UK is more rich and material better than today's China,when you start to apply Democracy and Press freedom in your society? when it is the enough money to start think of other things? whom can tell? and whom should make this judgement?
innner freedom can start and practice at any place,while people still alive.

Yes, I agree with you, democracy is the display of freedom which comes from inside and that is as true in democratic societies as anywhere else.

I know in the 80's thinkers in the US thought democracy was not a good thing and I know this was also believed by Margaret Thatcher of the UK. Clearly they are not going to be able to take away democracy in any physical manner - the army itself would fight against that.

However since the 80's we have had an enormous decrease in the interest in politics among people in general and the young in particular.

I think this has been achieved by the use of something they call 'spin' which is basically being at least economical with the truth or hiding the truth.

Whereas 25 years ago we would have political documentaries on all the time, we get very few now and when good one's are on, they are on in the middle of the night.

I fear for all that can happen while people are partially asleep in a democratic society.

You are also very correct that having access to the information makes all the difference. Without access you simply cannot know.

Yes, I wonder if more Chinese people knew about TS1989 if their attitude would change. We even had some young Chinese posters mocking the 'tank man' and trying to prove that he was trying to put a bomb into the tank.

We had live coverage of things here till the Chinese cut off communication after the killing began.


Yes and what you say is true. Religion though can also be a 'dogma'. People are expected within a religion to believe what they are told. That is why religions have often been used by people to motivate war.

Spirituality on the other hand is universal. The best of all religions addresses the spiritual and though people may use different words to describe things, the experience is much the same.

The spiritual is ethical and people can be experiencing themselves on the spiritual level by being in tune with themselves even if they belong to no religion.

The spiritual always unites us whereas religion is often used as a way to divide us.


Yes, and I think this may be what leads you to democracy. Because of the rampant inequalities in capitalism and the enormous capability for corruption, countries with capitalism have found a need for democracy or they end up in civil strife. I believe this will happen in China.


Well I don't think this kind of education is taught in the UK. I know when I did my degree I was allowed whatever point of view I wanted provided I backed it up.

I encouraged my daughter from the moment she could talk to have her own point of view on things. When she went to secondary school she went for a while on a kind of 'learning strike' because she believed they were only asking her to learn facts and that had nothing to do with intelligence. Once she realised she needed to have a few facts before she could begin to question things, she got back into things, sometimes irritating her teachers with her demand to look at things in depth, but never being denied her right to question.

If however you are talking about the 'spin' I mentioned above, then I would agree with you.

Yes, like I said above


I am interested in your story about TS1989 but only if you feel alright about saying it. I notice somewhere you mention about being in the army. You also sound like you are very angry about TS1989.

I know when the tanks first came in, we were wondering whether they might refuse to take action against the demonstrators. In a similar way, if I am remembering correctly when the 'tank man' climbed on the tank and was speaking to the soldier, I though the soldiers response to him was a friendly one, not the sort of response I would expect from someone who wanted to open fire.

You can of course give your response both at the time and your understanding of it now.

Yes, I think there is at least an element of trying to impress the outside world and I think China is doing very well at this.

I would doubt that anyone would need help more than the earthquake victims at this precise moment but can believe that there are other people living in China who need their lives improved immensely.

I also hear you say that this is not getting widespread attention throughout China.




I think at one time we had the best free health systemin the world. That is not the case at the moment.

However it is free for all people.

When I got cancer I received quick help and the best treatment available so that I now am free of the cancer and hopeful it will not return. When anyone is involved in an accident, regardless of who they are they will get the best treatment available.

yes, there are waiting lists for other things and we are always arguing about things connected with it and wanting it improved and more things treated and so on. People who have enough money can pay for private insurance to make sure they get everything done as and when they want and need.

To not have a health system available to all at the point of need just would not be acceptable to the people in the UK. We try to argue and fight rather that the health system is improved..but his could be a thread of it's own.


I am not applying any 'yellow' logic and I was simply stating 'as is'. People need the essentials of life before they can begin thinking about anything else.

However, someone Chinese posted here recently something about human rights in western eyes being more important to people eating. Of course if people are using that people need to eat as an excuse for not doing other things, not least making sure the people they are talking about do have enough to eat, then they are simply using this as an excuse not to listen, not to hear and not to change and proving your criticism correct.

I also was not suggesting that people could only have inner freedom when they were rich. You will note that at the beginning of my reply to you on that post I said that spirituality could be experienced anywhere.

People often argue that religion is used more by poor people to help them through the day.

My point was that money and wealth are not all they are cracked up to be and not infrequently when people have made a great deal of money they feel a need to do something about the inner emptiness they are suffering.

Sometimes people instead want to control others - that is a sign of inner deadness.

I think we already lost in the discussion about the relationship between essentials and sprituality.

Freedom from lacky of essentials is the same important as freedom spritually.

When i was child, the chinese gov control every essentials ,which actually acts as a tools
to control people's mind.

The situation in China today is that, in Chinese history within my knowledge, it is the only time over last 20 years, almost all of our Chinse are feed with enough food and cloth.

But there is no interal and spritual freedom been developed or even been asked ,since 1989.

Something must be wrong with the describetion of thier relationship.

Information pig farm: a term created by Prof. Jiao guobiao, whom was fired from his position in Beijing U.after published a series of articles critized Chinese Propaganda department. He use this term to describe the media reality in China: that all the information flow in China is very well fine-tuned by Chinese Propaganda department. and This Department feed our Chinese with information as the pigs are feed with stuffs,which was been given without any choice !!

I am not sure what's you are talking about your proxy problem. In China the GreatFireWall(GFW) is flitering contents and terms,beside the sites,but if you are using the oversea developed anti-GFW software, it can not give you only trouble but slow down your surf speed.
The traditional proxy will not work,but only those proxy with encrypted technology similar to online banking works.

Sorry to delayed reply..

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