Chinese protests, whoa! - Page 14 - Political Forum

Parisyann · 04-26-2008, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallpox

And strawman is just calling out a fallacy....oh well.
Sounds like Cole recites the same thing to anybody that posts about China. That would explain his disregard for other's arguments and his insistence on irrelevance.

Hahaha, yes, that would explain it. I kind of know what strawman means in terms of an argument. I just couldn't see where he thought you were name calling him. Oh well, I think I do => from a far-fetched thought.

smallpox · 04-26-2008, 02:46 PM

When people say that, it's usually because they have nothing to say.

Parisyann · 04-27-2008, 03:39 PM

Just one more example of how some Chinese nationalists can be such peaceful citizens: Scary stuff beware!

Chinese clash with protesters at torch run in Seoul - International Herald Tribune

Cole · 04-28-2008, 02:02 AM

A legitimate government exists in Tibet and no questions about it. No other person can claim legitimacy. Even if there are some short interruptions, the bigger historical picture remains -- Tibet is part of China and will remain.

Dalai Lama and his followers do not and cannot represent Tibet. Not even the minority of the minority. Yet China showed restraint.

Where have you been? Hu Jintao has been willing to have dialogue with Dalai's representative. And since 2002, there have been six meetings with Dalai. If Dalai can't even control the radicals and terrorists in the ranks of his followers, what bargaining position does he have?

These sort interference in internal affairs of other sovereign states is not legitimate :

www.german-foreign-policy.com

Try harder to cite some relevant examples and concrete evidence. Smallpox came up with an irrelevant German example and then try to disengage from it.

So everything else becomes meaningless when it does not conform small pox's straight jacket narrow views?

You have evaded all the questions I raised specifically on TIBET and CHINA. Reflect on your own advice and understand facts instead of just hitting in a vaccum.

Come on, tsk tsk ....

Cole · 04-28-2008, 06:46 AM

Anyone who behaves unruly should be taken away, interrogated, warned, and determine degree of wrongdoing. It does not matter what ethnicity, race or country. That's fair and square.

Hence, murder committed by Tibetan rioters in March is a serious cime, and racial profiling is worst crime against humanity and should be severely punished.

Tibet has been reopened to the press and increasingly so, no an issue. The temporary closure is for the safety of journalists. Unlike Middle Eastern countries, journalists disappear for prejudiced reporting. China government is too relaxed that it hasn't banned CNN despite repeated insults and biased reporting.

The present day Tibet was partly a result of the social revolution in tandem with the communist victory in China. Dalai worked with Beijing for 10 years without any drama till he was led astray by CIA and deviant lamas. Tibetans do have an autonomous government, self determination, freedom of worship, preferential affirmative action for family size, education, and no taxes, and domination of internal administration. Other minority ethnicities are there on short term postings or business. Due to harsh environment, do not stay.

Tibet Myth & Reality « In Pursuit of Happiness

OIC president said :

Quote:

The West must stop hectoring China over human rights. It took 200 years to evolve from the French Revolution. China started in 1949, that was a time when Britain and other European nations were also colonial powers, with all the "abuse attached to colonial powers".

Lay off China, says IOC chief : World: News: News24

Patience and understanding ...

Chinese Ambassador to UK: If the West could listen attentively to China

smallpox · 04-28-2008, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole

A legitimate government exists in Tibet and no questions about it. No other person can claim legitimacy. Even if there are some short interruptions, the bigger historical picture remains -- Tibet is part of China and will remain.

What are you trying to prove, that you don't know your history? Tibet has been part of China for 300 years/ 3000 years of Chinese history, and until the CCP, only when the Chinese weren't in charge of their government (Yuan dynasty was Mongolian, the period of the Qing when Tibet was part of China was when the Qing were under virtual control from Russia, Japan, France, England and Germany).
Even then....what the fuck is legitimacy? Because they WERE there, that is your legitimacy? None sense. You proved that it was none sense with my satire of Germany over Shandong (eventhough you didn't seem to understand the point of the satire). You can't answer what legitimacy is...I guess legitimacy is whatever England and Mongolia do....

Legitimacy is the people choosing, to me at least.

Quote:

Dalai Lama and his followers do not and cannot represent Tibet. Not even the minority of the minority. Yet China showed restraint.

Why not? Because of Chinese propaganda that he is the world's most evil man? China was no where near "ready" for independence during the May 4th movement.....
What makes you think the Dalai Lama would be the leader now? Ghandi was only the leader of India throughout its independence movement, then Nerhu took over and did a decent job.

Quote:

Where have you been? Hu Jintao has been willing to have dialogue with Dalai's representative. And since 2002, there have been six meetings with Dalai. If Dalai can't even control the radicals and terrorists in the ranks of his followers, what bargaining position does he have?

Seems like the terrorists and radicals are in Hu Jingtao's jurisdiction. And perhaps the Dalai Lama doesn't control everyone, perhaps people are responsible for their own action, perhaps that's the ultimate point that the CCP and you seem unable to comprehend. Might just as well say that every murderer and criminal in China is the fault of the CCP. It doesn't make any sense at all. And don't take this the wrong way, but a supposedly infallible authoritarian governments like the CCP SUCK at diplomacy in virtually all aspect that involve a conflict.

Quote:

These sort interference in internal affairs of other sovereign states is not legitimate :

www.german-foreign-policy.com

Try harder to cite some relevant examples and concrete evidence. Smallpox came up with an irrelevant German example and then try to disengage from it.

It was a satire of your argument that concession by other powers over a territory legitimizes any claims over that territory. Of course you completely missed the whole point and started arguing that Germany has no claim over Shandong, thus destroying your own argument. Good job.

An anonymous Canadian report spells out a conspiracy theory. HOLY SHIT!!! WHY DIDN"T I HEAR ABOUT THIS??!! Oh yeah, because it's yet another weak conspiracy theory with no actual evidence.
What's next? 911 was a hoax? Aliens build the pyramids? Hahahaha

Quote:

So everything else becomes meaningless when it does not conform small pox's straight jacket narrow views?

Might just as well expect me to have a car work without pistons. Oh no.... my straight jacket rules ohhhhhh.
These are axioms and facts that can't be broken. There is no long term success without democracy.

Quote:

You have evaded all the questions I raised specifically on TIBET and CHINA. Reflect on your own advice and understand facts instead of just hitting in a vaccum.

Come on, tsk tsk ....

What questions? You mean those strawmans? I don't need to argue when you're arguing with your shadow.

smallpox · 04-28-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole

Anyone who behaves unruly should be taken away, interrogated, warned, and determine degree of wrongdoing. It does not matter what ethnicity, race or country. That's fair and square.

I wasn't against stopping the riots, merely that the CCP should concede that more rights and democracy is needed in China.
Yet again, another Strawman from Cole. Why am I not surprised?

Quote:

Hence, murder committed by Tibetan rioters in March is a serious cime, and racial profiling is worst crime against humanity and should be severely punished.

Strawman

Quote:

Tibet has been reopened to the press and increasingly so, no an issue. The temporary closure is for the safety of journalists. Unlike Middle Eastern countries, journalists disappear for prejudiced reporting. China government is too relaxed that it hasn't banned CNN despite repeated insults and biased reporting.

Protection of journalists? You don't actually believe that do you?
And journalists are adults and can make their own decisions. Of course, it'd be totally unthinkable and implausible that the CCP wanted to keep this as discreet as possible because it fears to admit the truth to the international community and even to its own people.

Quote:

The present day Tibet was partly a result of the social revolution in tandem with the communist victory in China. Dalai worked with Beijing for 10 years without any drama till he was led astray by CIA and deviant lamas. Tibetans do have an autonomous government, self determination, freedom of worship, preferential affirmative action for family size, education, and no taxes, and domination of internal administration. Other minority ethnicities are there on short term postings or business. Due to harsh environment, do not stay.

Tibet Myth & Reality « In Pursuit of Happiness

OIC president said :

Lay off China, says IOC chief : World: News: News24

Patience and understanding ...

Chinese Ambassador to UK: If the West could listen attentively to China

There's nothing about the CIA in here....unless it was in the China daily Link, which I simply refuse to read. Chinadaily? How low can you sink? I might just as well cite the NRA in a gun debate.
They don't have freedom of worship and if they feel their freedoms are being abused, it's their right to assert it. The CCP DOES NOT talk for Tibet. Elections would, of course the CCP is too scare to see that this happens.

LostInTranslation · 04-28-2008, 10:22 PM

Quote:

There's nothing about the CIA in here....unless it was in the China daily Link, which I simply refuse to read. Chinadaily? How low can you sink?

This is the original article. I can't understand Italian, but maybe someone here can tell us what this is all about. You can also use web translators if you want to take a look yourself.

In his defense, Tsewang Rigzin said he was "misquoted" by the Italian newspaper.

The point I tried to raise here is: if you want to point finger on someone, point it towards the Italian journalist instead of China Daily. Furthermore, discrediting someone's argument solely based on the source he cited does not always make the counter-argument valid. Yes, we are aware that China Daily publishes many propaganda, but that doesn't mean that everything it publishes is not credible.

Quote:

Tibet. Le “tentazioni” disperanti, disperate e suicide di Tsewang Rigzin.

di Valter Vecellio

L’impressione – qualcosa di più di un’impressione – è che si stia pericolosamente sottovalutando, per cecità o per interesse, quanto sta accadendo in Tibet, quanto potrebbe accadere. Giorni fa Lorenzo Cremonesi per “Il Corriere della Sera” ha intervistato Tsewang Rigzin, da quattro mesi presidente del Congresso giovanile tibetano. Rigzin ha detto cose gravi, che dovrebbero indurre a riflessione, essere materia per un dibattito di cui, purtroppo, non si scorge traccia.

Non subito. Magari tra qualche anno, dice Rigzin, però potrebbe giungere il momento per il movimento di resistenza tibetano di adottare la via dei kamikaze già in voga nel mondo musulmano. Attentati suicidi a Lhasa: “Uno sviluppo più che possibile…Tutto è aperto. E’ un fatto che la nonviolenza predicata dal Dalai Lama non ci porta da nessuna parte. Anzi, ha permesso ai cinesi di espellerci dalla nostra patria e di continuare nel genocidio delle nostre tradizioni culturali e religiose. Dunque potrebbe presto arrivare l’ora di cambiare strategie di lotta”.

Affermazioni disperate e disperanti. Rigzin si sente “su un binario morto. Di noi si parla solo in modo episodico, limitato. Siamo dimenticati dalla comunità internazionale. Tante belle parole poi il nulla. Guardiamo invece come si fanno sentire i palestinesi e gli attivisti in Irak grazie agli attentati suicidi. L’attenzione dei media mondiali è tutta per loro. Noi siamo in una situazione disperata. Se la nonviolenza fosse vincente significherebbe che anche la nostra causa lo è. Invece stiamo perdendo”.

Quasi contemporaneamente, alcuni monaci tibetani si toglievano la vita; e la loro protesta estrema non sembra aver scosso più di tanto la comunità internazionale: dove sono le migliaia di amanti della pace, quelli del “No alla guerra senza se e senza ma”, quelli che hanno affisso alle loro finestre le bandiere arcobaleno… dove sono, ora? Silenti e inerti perché non c’è da mobilitarsi contro gli yankees? Per quanto sia meschino, così pare. Se non c’è da mobilitarsi contro Stati Uniti (o Israele), allora non si fiata. Cosicché – questa è la morale che se ne può ricavare – chi è oppresso e perseguitato deve augurarsi che ad opprimerlo e perseguitarlo siano gli Stati Uniti o Israele: solo così la “causa” sarò oggetto di solidarietà e diventerà visibile.

La questione sollevata da Rigzin tuttavia riguarda anche noi che non siamo “pacifisti”, ma nonviolenti. Rigzin in buona sintesi ci dice che scandire “Siamo tutti tibetani” non basta; ci chiede – e ci viene chiesto in tempi rapidi – di lavorare per provocare radicali cambiamenti di politiche internazionali per scongiurare conflitti e tensioni sempre più gravi e tragici. E’ quanto ci chiede il Dalai Lama stesso; e ci chiedono i perseguitati e gli oppressi in lotta nonviolenta, che per questo non godono dell’attenzione dei governi “democratici”, dei giornali, delle TV, dei “pacifisti”; e che, come Rigzin, possono avere la tentazione della lotta armata e terroristica: “Guardiamo come si fanno sentire i palestinesi e gli attivisti in Irak grazie agli attentati suicidi. L’attenzione dei media mondiali è tutta per loro...”.

C’è una consapevolezza che forse noi stessi dobbiamo ulteriormente acquisire. Da anni i radicali lavorano con il Dalai Lama e con i tibetani, con loro, grazie a loro, si arricchisce, con la richiesta di una genuina autonomia per il Tibet, i fronti aperti del Primo Grande Satyagraha Mondiale per la Pace, la Libertà e la Giustizia. Sono state fatte, e si stanno facendo, cose importanti. Marco Pannella ha più volte incontrato il Dalai Lama; e nel marzo scorso una delegazione del Partito Radicale Transnazionale guidata da Sergio D’Elia, Matteo Mecacci e Marco Perduca, era a fianco del governo tibetano in esilio in India, alle celebrazioni dell’anniversario della rivolta del 1959; ed è stata ufficialmente inaugurata una marcia di monaci che intende raggiungere il Tibet prima delle Olimpiadi.

Oggi come ieri. Cinque anni fa Pannella e i radicali furono lasciati soli: la proposta di esilio per Saddam, e la creazione di un’amministrazione fiduciaria dell’ONU in Irak, venne irrisa come visionaria, utopica; e boicottata. All’opinione pubblica mondiale si impedì di conoscerla e di poterla valutare. Con i radicali vennero censurati anche 303 parlamentari del centro-destra, 193 del centro-sinistra, 15 membri del governo, 46 parlamentari europei, e migliaia di cittadini di tutto il mondo che avevano aderito alla proposta radicale. Il governo Berlusconi rinunciò a fare sua l’iniziativa, non ne investì l’Unione Europea e l’ONU.

Era davvero una proposta visionaria e utopica? Il 25 settembre 2007, il quotidiano spagnolo “El Pais” ha pubblicato stralci di una conversazione tra il presidente americano George W. Bush e l’allora primo ministro spagnolo Aznar; quella conversazione è la conferma che l’appello di Pannella per “Irak libero” era una proposta alternativa seria e praticabile all’attacco militare e alle inconcludenti iniziative “pacifiste”, e che venne discussa ai massimi livelli mondiali. Senza presunzione: l’unica proposta realistica per scongiurare la guerra.

E’ andata come sappiamo: Irak devastato da una feroce guerra, Saddam impiccato dopo un processo farsa che è servito non tanto a fare luce sulle atrocità e le complicità internazionali del regime del rais, quanto a tappargli la bocca. Di più: l’intero Medio Oriente continua a essere focolaio di tensioni che rischiano di degenerare e di estendersi su scala planetaria.

“Irak libero” rimane tuttavia una idea-forza che non va abbandonata: un fronte di lotta da tenere aperto nel duplice aspetto relativo al ruolo e ai limiti dell’ONU, e alle inadeguatezze e povertà della politica estera italiana ed europea in Medio Oriente; che, per quanto riguarda il conflitto israelo-palestinese è appiattita sulla inconcludente prospettiva dei “due popoli, due Stati”; mentre la proposta realistica e perseguibile è quella federalista dei “due popoli, una democrazia”, che i radicali propongono da vent’anni.

Dopo il rilancio del Satyagraha, i mesi che ci separano dalle Olimpiadi saranno “pieni” di iniziative in Italia, al Parlamento Europeo, in Medio Oriente: per arrivare, questa estate, con proposte concrete che forniscano le riforme possibili da opporre alla paralisi “realista” che attualmente domina le relazioni internazionali tra i governi; e per scongiurare le tentazioni suicide e disperate di cui si è fatto portavoce Tsewang Rigzin. Una “tentazione” che in molti possono coltivare, con gli effetti disastrosi che tutti noi possiamo facilmente intuire.

smallpox · 04-28-2008, 10:35 PM

I don't know how to say CIA in Italian, but I could wager anything it's still CIA and there's nothing that says CIA in there.

LostInTranslation · 04-28-2008, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smallpox

There's nothing about the CIA in here....unless it was in the China daily Link, which I simply refuse to read. Chinadaily? How low can you sink?

I don't know how to say CIA in Italian, but I could wager anything it's still CIA and there's nothing that says CIA in there.

I made it very clear in my response the point I tried to raise, didn't I? Since you were questioning the credibility of China Daily, I googled and found the original article for you in a couple of mintues. It wasn't that difficult.

I never said there is CIA in that article, did I? Neither is there any reference to CIA in the China Daily link, but of course, you refused to read it. The China Daily article quoted an interview of Tsewang Rigzin by an Italian reporter that said TYC might resort to suicide attacks. Why you insisted on finding CIA in that article is beyond me.

I have been away from the board due to busy workload for about a week, and obviously I haven't been able to follow every single thread. Neither you nor Cole was around when my short break from the forum started. I just browsed through some posts in this thread quickly, and I still couldn't find any post by Cole stating that CIA was behind the current event, other than that CIA has a not-so-graceful role in the early years.