Broad support for China over Tibet issue.China daily - Page 4 - Political Forum

Martin · 03-27-2008, 07:06 AM

Herr Slarti:
In Greece,the guy was not really a Tibetan activist but a Caucasian member of reporters without borders, wasn't he? Please do correct me if wrong.
About the Dalai Lhama and his 'buddhist' group and the young Tibetans: for some reason the west thinks Tibetan Buddhists are all from the DL's sect. That happens to be untrue as Buddhism has as many different sects as does Christianity.
Not a good help for getting the musketeers slogan working in an orderly way.
Remember: "Un pour tous, tous pour un"?

mikado · 03-27-2008, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LostInTranslation

That being said, I disagree with your statement of “we've got nothing to go on but rumors from the Tibetans-in-exile and the Chinese government”. For example, there are plenty of videos, pictures and stories posted by foreign tourists present in Lhasa, and I cannot imagine that they were all bought out by the Chinese government.

I agree, but the tourist evidence is very patchy. For what it's worth, there are also photographs circulating of what appear to be Tibetans with what appear to be bullet wounds. Who knows if they're genuine or not?

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From what I read in Chinese media, the central government placed a strict order of not using anti-personnel weapons towards protesters in Lhasa, probably because of the upcoming Olympic game. This was also confirmed by many tourists, as well as Economist’s James Miles. Occasionally they have heard shots fired, but likely due to the tear gas canisters firing. In addition, well over 100 police officers were injured, many seriously, and one died. If they were carrying live weapons and shot into the crowd, I wouldn’t think that the mob would attack them so easily.

But do you trust the Chinese media? Here's another James Miles report, referring to Saturday 15 March:

Midnight ultimatum for Tibet showdown - Times Online

A photo of what apear to be troops with rifles, plus reports of gunshots. Granted the arrival of the troops appears to coincide with the end of the worst of the riots, and there may not have been firearms used earlier on.

I agree that there doesn't seem much independent evidence to support claims of "100+" deaths or anything like that. I'd agree also that if there are rioters attacking people then it's not beyond all reasonableness that some of those rioters get killed by security forces.

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Now, the number of Tibetan deaths is a mystery to date. It is definitely to the best interest of the government to downplay this. After all, would you want to instigate further violence by reporting the killing of Tibetans by the police? Eventually we would get a better estimate, but for now, I think the most important thing is to calm the situation down to avoid further loss of lives.

I think that calming the situation is indeed important, but to resolutely report anything about Tibetan deaths creates an information vacuum, which is easily filled by rumours. If the Chinese government have nothing to be ashamed of then they are not serving their own best interests by maintinaing the secrecy.

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I don’t think I would be able to address the issue of Tibet Independence in a short response here. You have to be aware that Tibet has two meanings: the political Tibet (the TAR) and the ethnographic Tibet (the Great Tibet). The independence that the pro-independence groups were seeking is for the later, which includes a much wider region than the former. Some of these regions were settled by Han Chinese and other minority groups as early as in circa 50 A.D., well over 600 hundred years before the first Tibetan came there.

Perhaps the situation is similar to Northern Ireland or to Kosovo. When there's two communities that are intermingled, yet who are unable to live together so a separation is required, a line has to be drawn somewhere to make that separation. Some from each community will find themselves on the wrong side of that line.

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Finally, if you think CCP does not allow Tibetans to vote for independence solely because of their concern of losing Tibet, you have not considered the full picture. First of all, there are currently over 4 million Tibetans living in China, 450,000 in Lhasa alone. How many of these near half million resident in Lhasa were engaged in the riots? Honestly, I would be curious to learn the result from such referendum, and I don’t think the result would necessarily be against the CCP’s will. But more importantly, China is a multi-ethnic country with 56 ethnic groups residing there, and Tibet is not the only region of concern. The CCP simply cannot allow Tibet to set a precedent. Even if the result is in their favor, there will be a Domino effect to other hotbeds.

But that begs the question of whether these other regions that perhaps don't want to be part of China really ought to be part of China. Just like there's a question as to whether Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales ought to be part of the UK.

Slartibartfas · 03-27-2008, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

Herr Slarti:
In Greece,the guy was not really a Tibetan activist but a Caucasian member of reporters without borders, wasn't he? Please do correct me if wrong.

Sorry, an inaccuracy from my side. You are correct, it was from reporters without borders. Funny how the Chinese TV censored a protest for the freedom of press.

The Tibetan activists appeared later on with posters and slogans, but were perhaps never within the scope of the cameras or microphones (I guess that has been made sure).

My point about censorship and bias of the Chinese media is still intact however.

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About the Dalai Lhama and his 'buddhist' group and the young Tibetans: for some reason the west thinks Tibetan Buddhists are all from the DL's sect.

I was thinking in political terms rather than strictly religious. Isn't the majority of Tibetans support the Dalai Lhama as political head? If thats wrong, you are free to correct me.

PS:
Its clear that you have probably a far more extensive knowledge of the situation. Those issues in South East Asia are not really what I am an expert in.

PPS:
That "Herr Slarti" sounds weird.

To put a Herr in front of an avatar name... simply sounds funny

winter6126 · 03-27-2008, 08:10 AM

Slartibartfas,you don't understand us.most Chinese got message not from Xin Hua and CCTV.most Chinese have DV and DC,we got message from them--who was on the spot.

Anti-Germany

winter6126 · 03-27-2008, 08:25 AM

I liked westerners before,
but too bad,i found i dislike westerners very much now.
so boring when i see them.

Martin · 03-27-2008, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Sorry, an inaccuracy from my side. You are correct, it was from reporters without borders. Funny how the Chinese TV censored a protest for the freedom of press.

Very true, that last phrase. But heh, that's the Middle Kingdom, far from "purfeckt" but working on it. Give them a few more decades.

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The Tibetan activists appeared later on with posters and slogans, but were perhaps never within the scope of the cameras or microphones (I guess that has been made sure).

That indeed has been made sure as their "direct" transmission was delayed only a few seconds from real direct. Just enough to do some editing. Hehe...

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My point about censorship and bias of the Chinese media is still intact however.

True, very intact it is.

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I was thinking in political terms rather than strictly religious. Isn't the majority of Tibetans support the Dalai Lhama as political head? If thats wrong, you are free to correct me.

Correct again but the political terms are as if addressing Muslims as muslims by forgetting the Sunni and Shiite are a tad different, also the political way, if you got my drift.

Quote:

PS:
Its clear that you have probably a far more extensive knowledge of the situation. Those issues in South East Asia are not really what I am an expert in.

Me neither, but have some knowledge, as you do too, about politics in general = not really anything new under the sun.

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PPS:
That "Herr Slarti" sounds weird.

To put a Herr in front of an avatar name... simply sounds funny

I stand corrected but am not going to make the same mistake the other way by calling you "Gnaedige Fraulein Slarti", am I? Sorry about that, my mistake, "Dass Slarti"

.Gruess Gott.

Slartibartfas · 03-27-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winter6126

Slartibartfas,you don't understand us.most Chinese got message not from Xin Hua and CCTV.most Chinese have DV and DC,we got message from them--who was on the spot.

Whats "DV and DC"? Sorry I don't understand.

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Anti-Germany

Isn't that a bit of an overreaction?
To hate entire Germany (or maybe the entire west?) for the unprofessional news coverage of a few channels?

Slartibartfas · 03-27-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

Very true, that last phrase. But heh, that's the Middle Kingdom, far from "purfeckt" but working on it. Give them a few more decades.

Maybe, but who says, that freedom of press in their plan at all? Who says that they are not wanting the progress alone without the freedoms?

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Correct again but the political terms are as if addressing Muslims as muslims by forgetting the Sunni and Shiite are a tad different, also the political way, if you got my drift.

I see. But to my ears the Dalai Lhama sounds like the most peaceful from the side of the Tibetans the Chinese will hear for a long time. It might in fact be the best for China to at least talk with him, as he does not even demand independence as far as I have heard, only effective autonomy rights within China. But its their business anyway, if China doesn't like that idea, its their problem.

Quote:

I stand corrected but am not going to make the same mistake the other way by calling you "Gnaedige Fraulein Slarti", am I? Sorry about that, my mistake, "Dass Slarti"

.Gruess Gott.

The sex of the term was correct before, it was just that it sounded so formal

Martin · 03-27-2008, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slartibartfas

Maybe, but who says, that freedom of press in their plan at all? Who says that they are not wanting the progress alone without the freedoms?

They are not able today to afford it but trust them.It will come. Think about 2047, 50 years after the Hong Kong hand over.

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I see. But to my ears the Dalai Lhama sounds like the most peaceful from the side of the Tibetans the Chinese will hear for a long time. It might in fact be the best for China to at least talk with him, as he does not even demand independence as far as I have heard, only effective autonomy rights within China. But its their business anyway, if China doesn't like that idea, its their problem.

Yup, their problem it is and I also have learned that our friend the DL is a master of reincarnated "double speak"... Anyway, his life is upper class, good for him.

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The sex of the term was correct before, it was just that it sounded so formal

My ski teacher, in those days was "Austrian school". I loved the 3rd lesson for the other sex: "Tits nach Tall, bitte!" Now that was anything but formal!

Slartibartfas · 03-27-2008, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin

They are not able today to afford it but trust them.It will come. Think about 2047, 50 years after the Hong Kong hand over.
Yup, their problem it is and I also have learned that our friend the DL is a master of reincarnated "double speak"... Anyway, his life is upper class, good for him.

Don't say anything against him, he owns the same shoe brand and type that I call my own

Am I now upper class?

Quote:

My ski teacher, in those days was "Austrian school". I loved the 3rd lesson for the other sex: "Tits nach Tall, bitte!" Now that was anything but formal!

I am not sure what that should mean. Tits, thats English, isn't it?