African Development Update - Political Forum

Dragon Horse · 11-15-2007, 08:49 AM

African Progress « The Postnational Monitor

This is only progress because it is in Africa, anywhere else it would be average to pathetic, when you consider how far behind most African countries are (as compared to the average developing nation outside of Africa). 5.4% is not fast enough growth for economies that low to pull enough people out of poverty in a way that can compete with inflation and population growth. "Moving at tandem with the rest of the world" is not enough. If East and Southeast Asia moved at tandem they would still be as poor as Africa.

AID to Africa should focus on 3 things: Education, Infrastructure, Disease. This is the only way they will ever attract significant FDI (foreign direct investment), outside of the normal resource whoring. FDI in the form of joint ventures is the only way African nations will ever hope to not only export raw materials but also developed finished goods in country and export them. Value added goods and labor intensive industries that can employee masses of semi-literate people is the only way Africans will ever really start the ball rolling.

That is not enough, all aid must have feedback loop to ensure it is allocated effectively. Corruption must be culled, even if that means doing what Vietnam and China do, putting politicians in front of a firing squad. In Africa, it is far more critical that this be done than in Asia, due to tribalism.

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World Bank reports progress in sub-Saharan Africa
By Sharon LaFraniere

Thursday, November 15, 2007
JOHANNESBURG: After enduring decades of economic collapse and stagnation, many countries in sub-Saharan Africa have turned a corner and are now growing economically at rates comparable to rates in the rest of the developing world, according to a report released Wednesday by the World Bank.

The report attributed Africa's progress over the past decade in part to smarter economic policies, better government and fewer armed conflicts. The strong global economy, trade expansion and greater foreign investment have also helped the region.

"Africa is now moving in tandem with the rest of the world," John Page, the bank's chief economist for Africa, said.

Over all, the region's economy grew by 5.4 percent in 2005 and 2006, faster than the economies of many developed countries and similar to those of developing nations other than India and China. Nations that export oil or minerals led the pack, but 18 others — home to more than a third of the region's population — also performed well, the report said.

Africa still occupies the bottom rung of the world's economic ladder. Forty-one percent of sub-Saharan Africans live on less than $1 a day — an improvement from 47 percent in 1990, but still the world's worst poverty rate. A lack of skills, low productivity, red tape and poor infrastructure hobble business development.

The recent economic progress merely made up for ground lost during the plunge that accompanied independence and the painful belt-tightening that followed. Over all, Africa has simply recovered its position of three decades ago, the report says. "The reason: when things go well they do not last, and when they go wrong, they go very wrong," the report states.

Still, Page said, Africa is at a turning point. He credits the improvement, in part, to the fiscal discipline advocated by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

But some African leaders now condemn the bank and the fund for persuading them to cut budgets and trim the ranks of teachers, nurses and other trained workers at a time when their countries, arguably, needed them most. And critics argue that in some nations with oil or other natural resources, growth has enriched an elite class but passed over the poor.

Page acknowledges some ill-advised outcomes. But over all, he said, many nations managed to reduce debt, tame inflation and set competitive exchange rates, setting the stage for economic growth. "The alternative would have been much worse," he said.

The report offers a varied picture of Africa's economic strengths: It takes just 14 days to start a business in the Central African Republic, for instance, but 233 days in Guinea-Bissau. South Africa is ranked among the top third of the best nations in which to do business, but over all Africa ranks in the bottom fourth.

More than 60 percent of the region's direct foreign investment in 2005 was in its oil-exporting nations. South Africa and Nigeria, the continent's leading oil producer, accounted for more than half of sub-Saharan Africa's gross domestic product.

For the poor, the report states, avoiding drastic economic downturns is crucial because they suffer most from declines. "The question for economic policy-makers in Africa, then, is how best to sustain the pickups in growth," the report states. "The answer: avoid crushing declines."

Brother Oz · 11-15-2007, 10:11 AM

Quote:

The recent economic progress merely made up for ground lost during the plunge that accompanied independence and the painful belt-tightening that followed. Over all, Africa has simply recovered its position of three decades ago, the report says. "The reason: when things go well they do not last, and when they go wrong, they go very wrong," the report states.

Still, Page said, Africa is at a turning point. He credits the improvement, in part, to the fiscal discipline advocated by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Though it's slightly off-topic, this is absolute rubbish. After independence, there was a period of reasonable growth. It was in the period of the late 80s and early 90s when things started to go horribly wrong, due in part to the "reforms" advocated by the IMF and World Bank (and why on earth should the IMF be doing that anyway?) that economies collapsed.

The current improvements are I think mainly due not to any particular imposed economic discipline, but rather simply that it is a much more peaceful continent than, say, 10 years ago, as well as more democratic. If that is kept up, then things will get better.
Off course, that's not to say that things like corruption, red tape, illiteracy mustn't be gotten rid of as well. I agree with you about the best focus for aid. Though outside aid can only play a part in Africa's economic rehabilitation, it cannot achieve it completely by its own.

Dragon Horse · 11-15-2007, 10:53 AM

"Though it's slightly off-topic, this is absolute rubbish. After independence, there was a period of reasonable growth. It was in the period of the late 80s and early 90s when things started to go horribly wrong, due in part to the "reforms" advocated by the IMF and World Bank (and why on earth should the IMF be doing that anyway?) that economies collapsed."

I agree with this...hey post that on my site. :-)

africanhope · 11-15-2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

That is not enough, all aid must have feedback loop to ensure it is allocated effectively. Corruption must be culled, even if that means doing what Vietnam and China do, putting politicians in front of a firing squad. In Africa, it is far more critical that this be done than in Asia, due to tribalism.

And I don't quite ge this? Should we actually really shoot corrupt politicians? Ans what does tribalism havve to do with it?

AH

Dragon Horse · 11-15-2007, 10:06 PM

What you "don't get" is not my issue. I'm not hear to educate you about basic things. Read a book. You want a reading list?

If not, don't waste my time. At least do some footwork and bring something to the table, instead of asking "what tribalism has to do with it" there are probably hundreds of books that go into that in detail and how it interacts with corruption in Africa. Every African I know knows this and complains about it. If you don't, then you are not from Africa or you are very very young and naive. Either way, not my issue.

If you don't have very specific pointed questions don't waste my time. As far as I'm concerned tribalism and corruption in much of Africa is common knowledge.

BBC NEWS | Africa | Tribalism 'rampant' in Kenyan workplace

As far as shooting corrupt politicians? Definitely. Send a message. Their theft, unlike in America or Britain, actually leads to real people (especially children) dying due to lack of resources that could have been purchased with that money. As far as I'm concerned they are not just thieves but "traitors to their nation" who should be executed.

africanhope · 11-16-2007, 01:56 AM

I asked about the killing of politicians, which you seem to propagate, and about what tribalism has to do with corruption. You answer could have bee na simple - 'I don't know' instead of insults, that would have been fine you know.

My education about Africa? Yeah, i read, a lot. I am not naive, trust me, but the best education about Africa, I live here, it is a good education to have.

did I deny tribalism is a problem? Nope, I did not (not a huge problem in my country, but it is in others) In the other thread I mentioned it, rmember? When I said that the horrible broders Europe drew up, is the cause of many of Africa's problems. So I did not and do not deny tribalism.

And did I dey coruuption? Again no. I did not. It is a huge problem and needs to be solved.

My question, Mr Dragonhorse, which I asked politly, and angain ask politely, and a polite answer, or a polite 'I do not know' would be good thank you, is what is the link between the two?

I can't wait to hear your answer.

PS. Oh and I have a great reading list for you too, if you want to know about real Africa, just ask

africanhope · 11-16-2007, 02:31 AM

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This is only progress because it is in Africa, anywhere else it would be average to pathetic

Quote:

Over all, the region's economy grew by 5.4 percent in 2005 and 2006, faster than the economies of many developed countries and similar to those of developing nations other than India and China

Dragon, do you deny this is a huge improvbment? You say it is avarage to pathetic, yet is it is higher than most Devleoped coutries, and is a huge improvement on were Afric a's growth was ten years ago. Steps has been taken. You can not jump from 1% growth to 15% in one year, or even in one decade, growth speeds up gradually, and this meands this is all a step in the rght direction. So how is this pathetic then?

Istead of critising it, we should praise the Africans who are working so hard to better their circumstances, and encourage them to do more.

Quote:

Still, Page said, Africa is at a turning point. He credits the improvement, in part, to the fiscal discipline advocated by the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

As suasual, Oz, I fully agree with you that this is rubish. The IMF and Word Bank caused more problems than they solved in Africa, and they should really not take the claim for the recovery. One example, they say a lack of infrastructure is one of the reasons Africa struggles, but it is their policies which forced governments to privitise infrastructrue, which led to it's downfall.

And then back to corruption, and shooting politicans.

One important way to make Africa better, is to adhere to Human Rights practices, as this is still a problem in many African countries. You can not solve a Human Rights abuse (corruption of Aid0 with another Human Rights abuse (shooting politicians). As the best way to get rid of corruption is through openess and transparency, politicians caught should have an open and transparent courtcase, and then send to jail, as one would do with any other thief, as it is important that people know politicans are just like everyone else, and under the same laws, and with the same rights.

Corruption is still a huge problem, but Africa is now, under the guidance of the AU, becomming more and more motivated to fight this.

Index of /ggp/coursematerial/goodgovernance

If you follow this link, go down to corruption, and read that interesting article.

In this paper, Michelo Hansungule, Professor of Human Rights Law, Centre for Human Rights, Faculty of Law, University of Pretoria, South Africa give an overview of the anti-corruption movement in Africa.

Looking at the causes of corruption, he states:

Quote:

There are as many causes as there is corruption. However, some of the most frequently cited include the following:

 Inadequate procedures and manuals. Procedures and manuals lay down the framework for the conduct of business be it private or public business. It is necessary that there is consistence between procedures on one hand and activities and practices of officials on the other. In order for this, procedures and manuals should be adequate so as to seal up any possibility for abuse.

 Lack of Code of Conduct or ineffective Code of Conduct. It is important that public officials starting from the Head of State down to Cabinet Ministers, Judiciary staff and other high ranking officials of state are bound by codes of conduct. Codes of Conduct must be effective and not open to easy abuse

 Complex Legislation. Legislation empowers officials to discharge their functions. However, they cannot do so efficiently or at all if the same are too complex. Examples of complex legislation in most jurisdictions include customs laws and legislation

 Poverty. Although it is not true to say poverty equals corruption as most poor people are those that are not corrupt while the rich are among the most corrupt, lack of proper incentives or compensation for work could, for instance, lead to corruption, especially among those morally weak.

 Personal greedy. The desire to 'own' other people and control everyone leads to corruption. Some individuals want to be powerful and above others. Similarly, multinationals want to be more powerful than their competitors or even states.

 Born criminals. Italian anthropologist Cesare Lombrose (1836-1909) advanced the theory that some people are born criminals. In his book, Criminal Man (1876), Lombrose argued that some people are born with strong, innate predisposition to behave antisocially. Lombrose was influenced by Charles Darwin, who in his controversial book "The Descent of Man", offered the theory that "some people are generally closer to their primitive ancestry than others". Similarly, Lombrose believed that the criminal represented a separate species that had not yet evolved sufficiently towards the more "advanced" homo sapiens. He argued: "This species was somewhere between modern humans and their primitive origins in physical and pyschological make up". He called this evolutionary retarded species homo deliquens and considered these individuals mutations or natural accidents living among civilised humans.

You will notice that ribialism is not mentioned there, interestingly enough.

Then, on the anti-corruption drive, he states:

Quote:

7. AFRICA'S RESPONSE TO CALLS TO DEAL WITH CORRUPTION

In response to calls on Africa to address the issue of corruption, the African Union has recently come with a comprehensive piece of instrument - The African Union Convention on Preventing and Combating Corruption. Previously, this decision would not have been imaginable. Consequently, the very fact that it is on paper is a landmark development in itself. The objectives of the Convention are:

OBJECTIVES OF THE AU CONVENTION ON PREVENTION AND COMBATING CORRUOTION

1. Promote and strengthen the development in Africa by each State Party of mechanisms required to prevent, detect, punish and eradicate corruption and related offences in the public and private sectors
2. Promote, facilitate and regulate cooperation among the State Parties to ensure the effectiveness of measures and actions to prevent, detect, punish and eradicate corruption and related offences in Africa
3. Coordinate and harmonise the policies and legislation between State Parties for the purposes of prevention, detection, punishment and eradication of corruption on the continent
4. Promote socio-economic development by removing obstacles to the enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights as well as civil and political rights
5. Establish the necessary conditions to foster transparency and accountability in the management of public affairs

(Bold is my emphasis0

And then I just want to qoute one part of his conclusion 9but do go and read the paper)

Quote:

However, there are now beginning to be signs that society is now rising up to take a stand against the vice. Although it is still too early to determine the effect of the various processes such as described above in the fight against corruption, there is no doubt that the African people have taken the challenge directly in their hands which is unlike before when they were mere spectators. This explains why regimes are taking the measures they are on corruption.

Is corruption a problem in Africa, hell yeah. Is it only Africans doing it, nope, many Western companies misuse this corruption, and are thus just as guilty. But finally, finally, Africans are standing up, and fighting for democracy, as they now finally believein it themselves, they arefighting corruption, as tey now realise they have the power, and they are fighting, howerver slow it may seem to the outside, to better their own lives, their own countries and their own continent for ourselves.

41% living on less han $1 a day might seem pathetic to you, it is just fantastic for the 8% no longer living there since 1990, and a wondrfull sorce of hope for the rest, as they now know there is a chance out.

Here is the link to the AU's convention on corruptio, also quite a read:

http://www.africanreview.org/docs/co...convention.pdf

Well, have a good one!

AH

Dragon Horse · 11-16-2007, 06:53 AM

Africahope:

1) The point is I am not going to repeat common knowledge for anyone well read on the issue. I'm not your teacher. If you know these things then the only reason you ask such questions is because you hope to troll, not interested. I"m not going to engage in back and forth downward spiral into minutia because you are defensive over reality.

2)

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? You say it is avarage to pathetic, yet is it is higher than most Devleoped coutries, and is a huge improvement on were Afric a's growth was ten years ago.

This is not an intelligent statement. Developed countries are developed. After nations develope their growth rate slows down. South Korea, Singapore, and Hong Kong do not have the GDP growth they had 15 years ago, because they are developed.

The best thing to do is compare Africa to other developing regions.

5% GDP growth when considering inflation (REAL GDP) and the population growth is not enough to pull many people out of poverty. If they are not running 8-10% growth per year, forget it. You can see this by looking at the actual % of people pulled out of poverty in Africa in the last 10 years and compare that to China, India, Vietnam or go back some decades and look at Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, South Korea, Vietnam.

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Istead of critising it, we should praise the Africans who are working so hard to better their circumstances, and encourage them to do more.

That is not very hard work. All it does it maintain a level barely higher than the status quo.

Also you have to think of income inequality, most Africa nations have the highest in the world so whatever growth there is is not equally spread it is going to an elite.

List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[quote]You can not solve a Human Rights abuse (corruption of Aid0 with another Human Rights abuse (shooting politicians). As the best way to get rid of corruption is through openess and transparency, politicians caught should have an open and transparent courtcase, and then send to jail, as one would do with any other thief, as it is important that people know politicans are just like everyone else, and under the same laws, and with the same rights.[/quote

I didn't say they should not have trials that is what you assumed.

I believe they should have trials, however I also believe they should be executed. Here is the thing.

If the punishment is high enough and enforced, it has been shown over and over again that most rational criminals will calculate risk. If the risk is too high they will not commit the crime.

As far as Human Rights, that is BS. China is not a "free society with high human rights" however their corruption levels are far lower than most of Africa. Vietnam is also corrupt and growing.

How is that? The issue is not corruption. Every society on earth has corruption, you will never get rid of it completely, it is the degree of corruption in most African states that is the problem.

Capital punishment is a tool used to enforce the law, it is not the law. All such criminals should have a public trial on tv/radio and then shot.

Prisoners cost money anyway. Execution is cheap. Saves on the bottom line. :-)

Quote:

Is corruption a problem in Africa, hell yeah. Is it only Africans doing it, nope, many Western companies misuse this corruption, and are thus just as guilty. But finally, finally, Africans are standing up, and fighting for democracy, as they now finally believein it themselves, they arefighting corruption, as tey now realise they have the power, and they are fighting, howerver slow

If Africa was not corrupt Europeans can not take advantage of it. Did Western countries manipulate and use Singapore like that or Japan? Nope.

Also, you can state whatever you want in a officially (nonbinding) political statement but the issues is enforcement.

Please show me quantitative proof that corruption in major African states have decreased in the last 10 years. At least 10 states. Making a statement is not fighting corruption. Fighting corruption is making a statement and taking active measures to enforce it that create results that are visible and measurable.

China makes declarations on human rights and "Democracy with Chinese characteristics" all the time. What does that mean? LOL

Quote:

41% living on less han $1 a day might seem pathetic to you, it is just fantastic for the 8% no longer living there since 1990, and a wondrfull sorce of hope for the rest, as they now know there is a chance out.

Why is that? What industry causes this? Is it sustainable?

The majority of growth in Africa has been in raw materials, especially fossil fuels and that is driving the majority of the growth.

In your own country the Middle Class has grown, but at the same time the poverty rate has doubled in the last 15 years, DOUBLED. Talk about income inequality, SA is living proof of that. The economy is growing, certain people benefit, most people are worse off or the same. Yeah...some miracle, and SA has an economic growth that is higher than most of Africa by far.

So if the average is 5%, that 3% or 4% is meaningless to the Average person in those nations.

BBC NEWS | Africa | Poor S Africans double in decade

Your arguments are very weak and not well thought out. As I said...do you need a reading list?

africanhope · 11-16-2007, 08:18 AM

Sorry, My argument is not well thoought out is it? I love your looong tirad, meant to hide the fact tht you are not answering my main question - What does tribalism have to do with corruption. And hee is a tip, saying 'everybody but you know this' without any other kind of proof, is no arguemtn.

trolling? Making statement without pooving it, that is trolling, so can I expect an aswer soon?

Or are you going to repeat your 'reading list' joke again?

Finally, on your statement that we should not feel proud that Africa's growth is higher than that of the developed world, and compare rather compare it with the rest of the developing world, with wich Africa is competing, I agree, so lets do just th out of the article you posted:

Quote:

Over all, the region's economy grew by 5.4 percent in 2005 and 2006, faster than the economies of many developed countries and similar to those of developing nations other than India and China

And will anotehr equest to stop your insults and try to debate the issue go unheeded? Somehow I suspect it will

AH

africanhope · 11-16-2007, 08:37 AM

I put this in another post, as it is slightly off topic, but something you said needs an answer.

You point out that, even if SA has high economic growth, poverty is still a problem

that strnegthens my argument in a few threads that that shows that the neo-liberal policies forced on African countries by the IMF and world bank will not solve the problems of Africa on its own. In SA tis is leading to a even more conetrated fight for a Basic Income Grant, to alieviate these problems you mention, like the destrubution of wealth, whcih in SA, just for clarity, will atake a loong time, since, thanks to Aparthed, 80% of the money is in the handsof 10% of the polulation.

And lastly, could you make up your mind, if I use SA as a positive example, you say SA can not be used in a debae about Africa, since it is not real Africa, but when you want to use it as an negative example, it is fine. Could we at least try and be consistant?

AH