When the new Constitution was drafted, i understood that the only group that was previously advantaged, was white males - fair enough. Thus it was accepted that Affirmative Action would legally discriminate against white males.

BEE or "black economic empowerment" is something entirely different. BEE, has its own definition of "black", which includes black, coloured and indian, but only those who are SA Citizens by descent or became SA Citizens through naturalisation before 1993. In practice, however, such as in the National Defence Force, blacks are preferred before coloureds and indians.
South African business is forced to rate highly on a BEE scorecard.

My question is, if companies are not getting any BEE credit for employment of disabled persons regardless of race, or for employment of white women, or for employment of other cultures such as asians (Japanese, Chinese, etc.), and BEE only benefits blacks, while anyone who falls outside the BEE framework are having more trouble getting employed, and if they are, are paid less, does this not equate to an unfair advantage of a single group defined by race, does this not equate to blatant racism?

I would love some opinions from the legal experts, can we not abolish BEE on the basis of it being unconstitutional, not because of discrimination against white males, but against all these other groups? Is BEE not directly in contrast with the principles of a diversified society?

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BEE may seem to be in the hands of the Blacks, but it is just a front for the Multi National companies, who still controll the South African economy, only difference being that the color of the Paint or Coating has changed, it's business as usual for them and the Profits are much higher.

<Thus it was accepted that Affirmative Action would legally discriminate against white males.>

How nice. The only people to be discriminated against? That makes it better? How are they supposed to feed their families, just send the wife out to work and earn the money?

I think this is a gross exaggeration of events... The reason Affirmative Action does not encompass the white community of S.Africa is because they are in total control of every major sector in the country. And still are. AA also does not solely include blacks, but any minority excluding the white community. It may sound unfair and bias- but you also have to know that the country's economic improvement and social improvement was completely without any other ethnicity except the white community- therefore it is necessary for the re-intergration of the rest of the population. Ofcourse, there are those who exploit the opportunity and are used as examples for the whole concept. The good thing about is that its a small minority- unlike the growing exploitation in the US.


After 10 years, according to the department of trade and industry, black people have moved from zero to 10% of company ownership and occupy 15% of skilled positions... And they are the majority of the countries population-

An interesting article regarding AA-
http://www.guardian.co.uk/southafric...190653,00.html

This topic is a very serious one indeed... there are talks among the people to abolish the law of BEE and AA. The reason is the fact that we are losing important skills to other countries, namely doctors, nurses, engineering etc. Highly skilled people is leaving the country of that particulary reason. With the 2010 Soccer World Cup only three years away, we are in badly need of skilled engineering people, construction etc.; the argument here is actually. AA was to redress the past of unequality.

But twelve years is a bit longer now.. only a certain percentage of Black people, with the right connections is benefitting from the BEE and AA laws, the wealth of our country is not falling in the right hands, namely the poor population (of which is still majority black).

Take a look at a case study of Malasia, they also did it, and it nearly brought them civil war and a damaged economy. We don't want that, therefore, BEE and AA must be removed or reformed to include everyone to build our country.

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"What does not kill you, make you stronger!"

Sypin, you realise that of that 10% black ownership, about 9.995% was given to them? There is a sever problem in keeping blacks as owners of companies. After-all, people don't care about things they don't work for. Wouldn't it be ironic if due to lack of skilled labour the Stadium collapsed and killed all the fukers who ended Apartheid and unleashed this irresponsible wave of hell on South Africa? Granted maybe Apartheid should have ended on humanitarian grounds, but yet again people were too impatient, better solutions could have been given than just out-right, five-year transitional change to a new world.

Never forget...

More people were murdered in South Africa this year alone than were killed during all the time of Apartheid.

BEE and AA sets a president for the systematic extermination of white power 'baasskap' with no end.BEE and AA are hidden agendas of white resentments.

Let me give you some input from the point of view of a white woman who grew up and grew older under Apartheid. The idea of white men as 'bosses' - i.e. baasskap, has still not died. White men in this country still believe they are on a higher level of society than every body else. This is a generalization I know, there are men who are not like that. But generally white men still believe that women are 'ladies' and that anyone who isn't a white man is not worth speaking to or trusting with any responsibility. I welcomed the changes that our new democracy brought. It liberated everybody else including white women from the shackles of having to bow to everything being 'given' to us by our overlords. I worked in a company run by one of these men, he would only place his fellow believers in any position of authority and refused to let anyone, and especially a woman have any senior position. They were allowed the jobs, but not the pay or titles or benefits that went with them. When it was suggested that a very capable black woman be appointed as an area manager, he freaked, saying that black women were only fit to work in the kitchen, it was to change these companies that 'black empowerment' was introduced. So if these people are having a hard time of it under the current arrangements my feeling is that it's pay-back time.

Agrippina said:
"So if these people are having a hard time of it under the current arrangements my feeling is that it's pay-back time."

Agrippina, if I understand you correctly, no matter how badly the BLACK MAJORITY in this country trample all over the rights of other MINORITIES (whites included, but also included are asians, indians, cape-coloureds), you think this is perfectly fine and they can do this because the boss you had in KZN was a chauvinist???

And now you think that I should suffer the same fate as this boss you had in KZN, just because I am the same gender and have the same colour of skin as him, without even taking into account my age, or whether I even was in this country during Apartheid or not, or whether I had indeed benifitted from Apartheid (maybe my parents were poor whites, and my black neighbours' kids went to private school). Sounds racist to me, but hey, I must be stupid, "blacks can't be racist", and "its not racist if you discriminate against a white guy" is the order of the day.

I too welcomed the changes that our new democracy brought. But the ideals of a diversified, equal society so apparant during the transition, have all been shattered by a reverse-racist implementation of AA and BEE. The ideas might have been grand, but practically it just boils down to a racially divided society once again.

I am not in favour of anyone being 'trampled' on. I just think that it's about time that older white men came to terms with the fact that since the first white settlers landed on the beach in Cape Town, they have been the bosses. White men made the laws, dished out the punishment, got all the best jobs, were paid the best salaries and were able to exclude anyone they chose from anything they chose to. So if these people - i.e. older white men are feeling the pinch, I am overcome with indifference about their feelings.
As for the rest of us. We are not complaining. The only ones that are, are the ones who don't want the big success to work. I have children who are now established in their careers, they have never had a problem obtaining employment and neither have any of their friends. I have never heard any of them or their friend complaining that they have been turned down for jobs because of BEE and in fact they support the idea of empowering the previously disadvantaged. Once everybody here accepts that 80% of the population is not white (or rather slightly beige) in skin colour and therefore in any group in any situation 80% of the population should be other than white then we will get it right.
As for the 2010 world cup, I am sick of the nay-sayers who believe we will not be ready and that if it does not fail, the visitors will all be murdered for their cellphones and ipods. We have just successfully hosted the Twenty-20 cricket world cup, there was not one single glitch in the operation of any of the matches, they all went off smoothly. Believe me we will not fall down. It will be the best party the world has seen.
The other thing that is idiotic is the idea of reverse-racism. That term is a racist idea. Racism is racism, it cannot be reverse-racism so if you want to call discrimination against old white men racism, call it that and express your self openly. This is a free country, people do not get thrown in jail anymore for criticising the status quo.
Our country is not divided, and if it is, then it is still the minority who are dividing it. If you are proud of the country's achievements then say so and do everything you can to make it work.
We could have been dumped into a civil war of the worst proportions but instead we were given a dream to live out and it is up to every one of us to do our best to make the most of the dream. If you don't like the government make your feelings felt at the ballot box. When I speak to people here, the biggest whiners and complainers are the people who like my ex-boss still think that white women should be dressed up in their Sunday best every day, drinking tea with their white friends, while being waited on by black women who should still be washing dishes and cleaning houses and black gardeners who break the lawn mower so that the white boss can tell his friends over the Sunday braai why you can't trust these 'blerry blacks' with anything.