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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 02-18-2007, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by africanhope View Post
Nope Luke, you've got it wrong. They are not giving money to African states, and say - "spend it as you want" They are building these palaces, they are offering it ot these people, and only in countries where it is certain the government will be in power for some time. So the question remains, why are you building palaces for the rich, and not houses for the poor?
Simply speaking, we give them money, and they wanna employ Chinese engineers to build a government building. They are responsible for choosing what projects they wanna do after their operational calculations and consultings.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 03:49 AM
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Sorry to have to say this twice, Luke, but you are wrong. I lived in Namibia when this happend. China did not give money to do with as they please. The Chinese government gave a palace. They gave the workers (not only ingineers, workers, manual labourers), they gaveeverything. It was not a matter of here is some money, do something with it, it was a palace they gave. And in my mind, this is bribery, it is corruption, one of the biggest problems in africa is corruption, and it just seems as if the Chinese government is supporting this.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 04:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Colonial robbings from Europeans and then Americans, together with the slave labor in American south, has contributed heavily to the wealth accumulation for European and American capitalism development. Your family inheritances and national resources are directly or indirectly from the blood and tears of African people. You donating money to Africans is paying back the blood debt for your ancestors and your national founding fathers and redeeming their sins and crimes.
Actually, I was the slave, Luke. I am half black. I am the one who is owed reparations, by your logic. I am also half-Chinese, so that half of my family had nothing to do with slavery. So your logic of American stinginess fails, even when taken at face value.

What about all the things China has done, Luke? China had Korea under its empire for hundreds of years. Why do you not call the Chinese stingy for not paying reparations to the Koreans? China has inflcited hundreds of thousands of casualties on the Tibetans and have settled their lands. Increasing Han settlement of China is forcing many Tibetans to leave their homes. Chinese economic growth is helping the Han, and hurting the Tibetans. By your logic, then, you are stingy for not contributing reparations to Korea and to the Tibetans.

You and many other Chinese are currently living here in the United States living off the spoils of slave labor (as you have termed things). Have you donated any money to Africa to pay for the opportunities they have brought you?

I find your line of argument very weak. What's worse is that you are applying it in a biased way.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 05:12 AM
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Pretty much everyone in the world is descended from slaves at some point. I'm as white as a person can be, as far as I know, and I probably have hundreds if not thousands of slave ancestors from the middle ages and before.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by africanhope View Post
Sorry to have to say this twice, Luke, but you are wrong. I lived in Namibia when this happend. China did not give money to do with as they please. The Chinese government gave a palace. They gave the workers (not only ingineers, workers, manual labourers), they gaveeverything. It was not a matter of here is some money, do something with it, it was a palace they gave. And in my mind, this is bribery, it is corruption, one of the biggest problems in africa is corruption, and it just seems as if the Chinese government is supporting this.
I don't know the details of the friendship projects, but even if you claim it as bribery, you shall blame those who take bribes.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois View Post
Actually, I was the slave, Luke. I am half black. I am the one who is owed reparations, by your logic. I am also half-Chinese, so that half of my family had nothing to do with slavery. So your logic of American stinginess fails, even when taken at face value.

What about all the things China has done, Luke? China had Korea under its empire for hundreds of years. Why do you not call the Chinese stingy for not paying reparations to the Koreans? China has inflcited hundreds of thousands of casualties on the Tibetans and have settled their lands. Increasing Han settlement of China is forcing many Tibetans to leave their homes. Chinese economic growth is helping the Han, and hurting the Tibetans. By your logic, then, you are stingy for not contributing reparations to Korea and to the Tibetans.

You and many other Chinese are currently living here in the United States living off the spoils of slave labor (as you have termed things). Have you donated any money to Africa to pay for the opportunities they have brought you?

I find your line of argument very weak. What's worse is that you are applying it in a biased way.

Your country's wealth and resources are accumulated by the blood and tears of the Africans and Native Indians. As long as you used your country's resources, you cannot get away with your redemption of your country's sins.

The Contribution Relations between China and Korea were voluntary for both sides. We didn't force them to ask us for protection. In Ming Dynasty, Japan invaded Korea and China kicked them away. In Qing Dynasty, China failed to do that. We did not collect taxes, or set up orders in Korea. They were independent and had their own kings. We never robbed minerals in Korea or sold them as slaves as Europeans and Americans did in Africa, Asia and Latin America. They paid some contribution for the protection.

The majority of Tibetans under communism, though suffered in cultural revolution as well as Han Chinese, have much more freedom and land than they were under Lamaist Theocracy. We have never racially genocided Tibetans for land like white Americans did to Native Indians. We have never robbed their minerals or sold them as slaves like Europeans did to their colonies. On the contrary, millions of dollars have been allocated to Tibet to feed them, build their gold temples and improve their living conditions. In 1951, under Dalai Lama, Tibetan life expectancy is 36, now it is almost 67. They have made remarkable and exceptional progress under Chinese government.

China currently has no slave labor. Those dormitories of migrant workers are no so much different from the dormitories of college students. You cannot judge their salaries using your American standard. Sporadic labor law violations might happen especially in those factories from Foreign Corporate Companies. If you are talking about Criminal Labor camps, or Gulags, they deserve to labor without payments to redeem their sins to other people.

Therefore, compared to Europeans and Americans, Chinese are much more pure and innocent. My argument is very strong and based on historic facts.

Last edited by Luke : 02-19-2007 at 07:11 PM.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2007, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
China currently has no slave labor. Those dormitories of migrant workers are no so much different from the dormitories of college students. You cannot judge their salaries using your American standard.
I'm in agreement with supply and demand distribution and utilization of labor resources and agree no mature developed country is a measure for compensation standards considering economic and societal differences. It would be idealistic or threatening to require such a standard for a basis of acceptable political ideology.
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2007, 01:02 AM
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No Luke, I blame those who take the bribe and those who give it. Both are guilty of corruption
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“From the point of view of the pharmaceutical industry, the AIDS problem has already been solved. After all, we already have a drug which can be sold at the incredible price of $8, 000 an annual dose, and which has the added virtue of not diminishing the market by actually curing anyone.”

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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2007, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
I don't know the details of the friendship projects, but even if you claim it as bribery, you shall blame those who take bribes.
But not those who offer them right?
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  #90 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2007, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Your country's wealth and resources are accumulated by the blood and tears of the Africans and Native Indians. As long as you used your country's resources, you cannot get away with your redemption of your country's sins.
This is just dumb. You judge Americans like some people judge all mankind to be guilty of sin becuase of the original sin committed by Adam when he ate fruit from the forbidden tree. At least religious people who believe that have a decent reason to. It's part of their religion. Your only reason is retarded Chinese nationalism.

In any case, you contradict your own silly Chinese nationalist argument, since you are presently IN THE UNITED STATES taking advantage of the "country's wealth and resources" that were "accumulated by the blood and tears of the Africans and Native Americans." So if we are corrupt, then so are you. You just won't show any integrity and admit that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
The Contribution Relations between China and Korea were voluntary for both sides. We didn't force them to ask us for protection. In Ming Dynasty, Japan invaded Korea and China kicked them away. In Qing Dynasty, China failed to do that. We did not collect taxes, or set up orders in Korea. They were independent and had their own kings. We never robbed minerals in Korea or sold them as slaves as Europeans and Americans did in Africa, Asia and Latin America. They paid some contribution for the protection.
Korea was a territory of China's. What you call protection is in fact extortion. China proclaimed control over Korea and Korea had to pay tribute. Once again, you overlook China's dark history and magnify the US'......all the while being in the US benefitting from the country you so despise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
The majority of Tibetans under communism, though suffered in cultural revolution as well as Han Chinese, have much more freedom and land than they were under Lamaist Theocracy. We have never racially genocided Tibetans for land like white Americans did to Native Indians. We have never robbed their minerals or sold them as slaves like Europeans did to their colonies. On the contrary, millions of dollars have been allocated to Tibet to feed them, build their gold temples and improve their living conditions. In 1951, under Dalai Lama, Tibetan life expectancy is 36, now it is almost 67. They have made remarkable and exceptional progress under Chinese government.
China has invaded Tibet and is making the Tibetans a minority in their own land. That is exactly what the US did to the Native Americans. China has gone farther than the US in suppression actually. At least we allow the Native Americans to have their culture, but you won't allow the Tibetans to have even that. Millions of dollars have been allocated to Tibet indeed. The Han Chinese in Tibet make good use of the millions of dollars they allocate to themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
China currently has no slave labor. Those dormitories of migrant workers are no so much different from the dormitories of college students. You cannot judge their salaries using your American standard. Sporadic labor law violations might happen especially in those factories from Foreign Corporate Companies. If you are talking about Criminal Labor camps, or Gulags, they deserve to labor without payments to redeem their sins to other people.
China definetely has slave labor. People are beaten and often worked without being paid their wages. I would not be surprised if Chinese were actually forced to work at many of their jobs under force.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
Therefore, compared to Europeans and Americans, Chinese are much more pure and innocent. My argument is very strong and based on historic facts.
You have no argument. You condemn the United States, you live in the United States, you condemn the United States and profit in the United States. You condemn the United States for crimes, but ignore the crimes committed by China. I find your argument to be completely lacking in political and individual integrity.
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