Chinese policy in Africa - Page 5 - Political Forum

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #41 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Luke

What you did is purely punitive and negative. What we are doing is positive and constructive. You are just too stingy and angry to give the money, knowing that you cannot control Sudan for oil.

This is kind of a funny statement. China gives a few loans and all of sudden she is Mrs. Generosity. Who has given more in total aid, the UK or China? I would bet that even a tiny country like the UK (compared to China) still have given more money in aid to Africa than has China. This doesn't even count the rest of Europe or the United States. Looked at it from a complete perspective, China is the one who is stingy.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #42 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:47 AM

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Originally Posted by Luke

The money has just been offered, so I don't know how they are going to use it. They have also accepted some sort of UN or African Union peace troops in Darfur. But we respect Sudan government's sovereignty and we do not try to humiliate or embarass other countries just because they do not obey.

It's an extremely odd perspective to look upon the ending of genocide as humiliation for the people inflicting the genocide. Verily, I don't employ those kinds of "standards."

As far as sovereignty is concerned, China is only acting out of self-interest, not out of any principle or devotion to this so-called cherished soveriegnty. China commits human rights abuses and by pretending to be interested in this great concept of sovereignty over people's lives and rights, she is merely trying to get people used to allowing human rights abuses in China by the CCP.

I really don't see the "Chinese model" of sovereignty as a viable option here, mainly because it's not a model at all. It's just a bunch of arguments about how the West should not objecting to China's human rights abuses and totalitarian government, under the guise of an international theory.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #43 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:52 AM

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Originally Posted by africanhope

Human rights is a western ideology? Wow, now that is just wrong. It is not called 'Western human rights' it's called human rights. And what one white guy from Sa said, doesn't make that kind of rubish true or the mayority view. 70% of the people in SA are black. We are an African country, with AFrican problems, and trying to find African solutions. And Human Righst is one of the solutions to Africas problems. China is not part of the solution (as many Western countries with their subsidies and mining intrests in Africa also is not). And if you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

Sudan, also, did not accept AU troops because of China, but even before China came into the picture, and they are still refusing UN missions, with the support of China.

Africans believe in a sort of holism, called UBUNTU. And part of this phlosiphy says that what happens in Sudan, affects Africa. If people, inocent people, are killed in Sudan, it affects all Africans. So yes, we will interfere then, not invade, not humiliate, but get involved to try and solve the problem, and with all due respect, China is hindering this process, and this is to her own advantage.

Wow, 70%? I thought that there were more Africans than that. I thought white South Africans were only 10%.

In any case, it is extremely true in Africa that the problems of one country are the problems of Africa, since Africans many wars in Sudan, Chad, Somalia, Liberia, the Ivory Coast, Tanzania and Zaiire have all spilled over into a multitude of countries.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #44 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:54 AM

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Originally Posted by Luke

Where are American economic sanctions and war threatenings??

I assume we do not give loans to despotic governments in Africa. Also, Condi also called Zimbabwe an outpost of tyranny.

The US cannot fight all wars in all countries. China can feel free to step in. Oh right, China really doesn't care.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #45 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:58 AM

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Originally Posted by francois60

Chinese have a thing about foreigners. THe government knows that the easiest way to make their people reject democracy is to ridicule it as a foreign concept.

Well, it's a complicated issue. I think most Chinese (Luke and winter included) do look forward to a future democracy. They are actually probably a lot more reasonable than many Chinese nationalists. I have only met those nationalists on military websites. Some of those nationalists are so stupid that they actually want to bring back a Qin Dynasty (221 BC) style of goverment (Legalism) since they put their nationalist pride ahead of reason.

CHUQ · #46 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 06:02 AM

Another report to add to the lists on the Africa-China thing.

Pretoria - Chinese President Hu Jintao was in Africa this week bearing gifts of money for soccer stadiums, but also acknowledging tensions over mounting trade imbalances, the practices of some Chinese investors and the risks of doing business with rogue states.

Unmentioned, as Beijing adds lustre to Africa's renewed status as a strategic ally, is the possibility of a clash with the US as the two vie for resources and influence on the continent. Another source of possible conflict is China's sale of arms to countries accused of human rights violations.

Business Report - Beijing admits tensions and risks of increased African involvement

george.d · #47 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 11:12 AM

The US sells and provides arms to countries accused of human rights abuse. At one time we provided most of the arms and money to any S. American banana republic dictator who promised to eliminate communism or socialism in his/her country, complete with training their death squads. We supported the shah in Iran, Marcos in the Philippines, Saddam in Iraq, the current Iraq government, the Israelis, the Sauds, and on and on.

We're criticizing China for trade practices that include non-intervention?

Brother Oz · #48 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 03:02 PM

Well, I would hope America has learned its lesson. Just because you've been bad in the past doesn't make it ok for others to be bad.

Luke · #49 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 10:00 PM

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Originally Posted by Brother Oz

So should other African nations just sit back as Sudan massacres its own people?

It is a great idea for African Union to send troops there, and China is persuading the UN to give money to African Union for its mission.

Luke · #50 (**permalink**) 02-11-2007, 10:11 PM

[quote=francois60;19533Chinese have a thing about foreigners. THe government knows that the easiest way to make their people reject democracy is to ridicule it as a foreign concept.[/QUOTE]

The "democracy" chanted by American government is particularly hypocritical. To study American diplomacy, you don't need to study democracy or freedom, but you only have to research on Exxon Mobile and Lockheed Martin.
"Democracy" itself is a Greek philosophical idea. Every nation has their own right to select their standard and definitions.

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We only do that with nations who threaten us. We may not like the pro-Western nations' human rights records, but they do not try to harm us.

Where do Sudan or Angola threaten you??

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And two out of the three you cited are now the most liberal states in the Arab world. In part because of our influence.

Oh, god. Let me throw up first.

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Easy to say when your people aren't spread over dozens of countries, with boundaries defined by the West a long time ago.

And in the few cases where large numbers of Chinese do not live under CHinese rule(such as Malaysia and Indonesia) China has felt quite free to interfere and make threats. Part of the reason China attacked Vietnam was because Vietnam was mistreating Chinese.

China sympathizes if the oversea foreign citizens who are racially Chinese are discriminated. Vietnam war is purely for Soviet Union and Cambodia.

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Well, if Arabs are going to kill Africans, Africans have a right to do whatever they feel is best to stop it.

We support African Union's troops there and are trying to get UN to pay for that.