Chinese policy in Africa - Page 10 - Political Forum

Luke · 02-20-2007, 02:03 PM

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Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

This is just dumb. You judge Americans like some people judge all mankind to be guilty of sin becuase of the original sin committed by Adam when he ate fruit from the forbidden tree. At least religious people who believe that have a decent reason to. It's part of their religion. Your only reason is retarded Chinese nationalism.

In any case, you contradict your own silly Chinese nationalist argument, since you are presently IN THE UNITED STATES taking advantage of the "country's wealth and resources" that were "accumulated by the blood and tears of the Africans and Native Americans." So if we are corrupt, then so are you. You just won't show any integrity and admit that.

If those "Adam" stuff is historic fact, then your analogy might make some sense. Don't quote those religious myths to confront my historic facts.

I do not take advantage of the resources from America. I pay more taxes than American citizens, and have no welfare!!

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Korea was a territory of China's. What you call protection is in fact extortion. China proclaimed control over Korea and Korea had to pay tribute. Once again, you overlook China's dark history and magnify the US'......all the while being in the US benefitting from the country you so despise.

Korea has never been a Chinese territory. Chinese dynasties might rule north Korea for some years, but never the south. There have always been one or several independent Korean kingdoms in that peninsula for at least one thousand years. Ever since the 10th century, They pay tributes voluntarily and China have to help them if they are attacked.

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China has invaded Tibet and is making the Tibetans a minority in their own land. That is exactly what the US did to the Native Americans. China has gone farther than the US in suppression actually. At least we allow the Native Americans to have their culture, but you won't allow the Tibetans to have even that. Millions of dollars have been allocated to Tibet indeed. The Han Chinese in Tibet make good use of the millions of dollars they allocate to themselves.

Chinese policies in Tibet have always been much more benign than American genocide of Native Indians. The Tibetan population steadily increase from 1950s to now. However, Native Indian population almost went to extinction under the terror of American forefathers. Tibetan culture flourishes not only in Tibet but also in Han China Proper. Those lamas can go to any province and convert Han Chinese into Tibetan Buddhism. Millions of dollars are sent to Tibet to build those Golden Temples for Tibetans to worship.

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China definetely has slave labor. People are beaten and often worked without being paid their wages. I would not be surprised if Chinese were actually forced to work at many of their jobs under force.

This paragraph is just lies.

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You have no argument. You condemn the United States, you live in the United States, you condemn the United States and profit in the United States. You condemn the United States for crimes, but ignore the crimes committed by China. I find your argument to be completely lacking in political and individual integrity.

My argument is that: if you want to compare European or American aid to Africa to the Chinese aid to Africa, you have to consider the sins that Europeans and Americans did to them in the past several centuries. Their aids are the redemption for their sins.

africanhope · 02-21-2007, 01:02 AM

And this is exactly my problem, Luke. You say that the West's Aid is redemption from their sins, but Chinese Aid is the repeating of those sins. If you can indetify what the West did as wrong, why oh why do the same then?

AH

Luke · 02-21-2007, 11:37 PM

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Originally Posted by africanhope

And this is exactly my problem, Luke. You say that the West's Aid is redemption from their sins, but Chinese Aid is the repeating of those sins. If you can indetify what the West did as wrong, why oh why do the same then?
AH

Simply, we do not sell Africans as slaves, and we pay for the resources based on mutual agreement, not robbing them.

africanhope · 02-22-2007, 02:53 AM

China is robbing from them, Luke. It is the rulers that get money and houses, the whilte the poor people work in the mines getting those ecources at redicilous low wages. You are stealing from them. You areflooding the market with badly made cheap goods, puttinh local bussiness out of bussiness, you are robbing from them. You get concessions to bypass labour laws, paying less than minimum wage, becasue the rulers are your friends, and you are robbing from those poor workers. You are helping to keep bad governments in place, and robbing from the people who suffer under them.

Sorry Luke, but China is robbing from the Africans.

george.d · 02-22-2007, 08:41 AM

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Originally Posted by africanhope

China is robbing from them, Luke. It is the rulers that get money and houses, the whilte the poor people work in the mines getting those ecources at redicilous low wages. You are stealing from them. You areflooding the market with badly made cheap goods, puttinh local bussiness out of bussiness, you are robbing from them. You get concessions to bypass labour laws, paying less than minimum wage, becasue the rulers are your friends, and you are robbing from those poor workers. You are helping to keep bad governments in place, and robbing from the people who suffer under them.

Sorry Luke, but China is robbing from the Africans.

Aren't the rulers responsible for their country and its citizens, not their trade partners? It sounds very idealistic to blame anyone but the citizens for putting up with self-serving government, especially blaming trade partners.

As to quality of Chinese goods, I'm a hobbyist and find their mechanical tools to be of excellent quality, equal to and in many cases superior to what was formerly produced in the US. Cameras, clothing, electronics, etc. produced in China are all of excellent quality.

africanhope · 02-22-2007, 08:50 AM

1. If they have democratically elected governments, sure, no problem. But...

2. I am not saying all Chinese goods are badly made, I own some good Chinese producst. I AM saying the ones flooding the market are badly made, very cheap ones

george.d · 02-22-2007, 09:19 AM

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Originally Posted by africanhope

1. If they have democratically elected governments, sure, no problem. But...

Isn't it normal for a trading partner to recognize the government of any sovereign country regardless of political ideology? This is trade, not regime change.

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2. I am not saying all Chinese goods are badly made, I own some good Chinese producst. I AM saying the ones flooding the market are badly made, very cheap ones

Lesser quality than domestically produced goods and less expensive to the consumer? Wouldn't that be a consumer purchase decision based on disposable funds and needs?

africanhope · 02-22-2007, 10:15 AM

Supporting corrupt, bad regimes is also not a trading partners place, now is it?

And ifthe people are very poor, they buy for price, which is short sighted,as it destroys the economy and make the situation worse.

And please do not get me wrong, I do not try to shift the blame from the corrupt regimes, but the discussion between me and Luke is wheter trading partners have a responsibility too, and I am saying yes, they do.

Remember too, many colonies here started as "trading partnerships" look how that turned out

george.d · 02-22-2007, 10:54 AM

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Originally Posted by africanhope

Supporting corrupt, bad regimes is also not a trading partners place, now is it?

One could use that statement to avoid trading with the US under current administration. I don't view trade with a non-interference policy to be limited by government ideology on either side, it's money, nothing else.

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And ifthe people are very poor, they buy for price, which is short sighted,as it destroys the economy and make the situation worse.

I don't understand how poor people buying for price undermines an economy. If local manufacturing is not competitive that means it's inefficient and should be outsourcing its production to retain capital profits for domestic flow-through and investment in viable industries.

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And please do not get me wrong, I do not try to shift the blame from the corrupt regimes, but the discussion between me and Luke is wheter trading partners have a responsibility too, and I am saying yes, they do.

I disagree with that. Trade is commerce and other than military materials has no responsibility to the citizenry other than making goods available for purchase. It's government responsibility to ensure any trade is beneficial for the citizenry of both countries. While humanitarian responsibilities make for good conversation that's not the reality of trade.

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Remember too, many colonies here started as "trading partnerships" look how that turned out

China is not trading gold for humans. This is merchandise. If one trade party is being taken advantage of due to inept or corrupt government, it's the responsibility of the citizenry to change those circumstances, not the trading partner(s).

Luke · 02-22-2007, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by africanhope

China is robbing from them, Luke. It is the rulers that get money and houses, the whilte the poor people work in the mines getting those ecources at redicilous low wages. You are stealing from them. You areflooding the market with badly made cheap goods, puttinh local bussiness out of bussiness, you are robbing from them. You get concessions to bypass labour laws, paying less than minimum wage, becasue the rulers are your friends, and you are robbing from those poor workers. You are helping to keep bad governments in place, and robbing from the people who suffer under them.

Sorry Luke, but China is robbing from the Africans.

This paragraph does not make any sense. What you are complaining is the free market. If the workers think the salary is low, then they don't have to work here. They can go to work in other places that give them high salaries. If the consumers think the quality is low, they can buy European products as long as they are able to pay. What you said sounds like Communist propaganda against capitalism.

Robbing is that even if the workers do not want to work, they are forced to work like American plantations and European gold mines in Latin America and Africa. Robbing is that you are forced to buy a product from mandatory monopoly.

China respects each African government and acts accordingly and properly for each country. As a foreign country, it is impractical and ineffective for China to deal directively with "People" as you said. What kind of the cultural habit of local people will allow what kind of local government. They have to work hard themselves to change their organizations if they want to. There is no easy way around it.