This thread is directly discriminatory as it deals with a very divisive racial issue in South Africa: and I take the side of whites while others have taken various sides, some have taken blacks side, but the majority have taken a pluralistic side (what is struggling to survive now).

I am glad that Africanhope has finally woken-up to the growing racial problem in South Africa for a lot of his African posts (I have been perusing them since reading your SA post hope you don't mind) I have the feeling that you've tried to look the other way to the growing problems in South Africa's society largely expressed in crime but the roots of which we both know to be in economics.

The economy was doomed to fail in the SA thread I explained because whites built South Africa; the explanation of that is too complicated to put in this first post but in short its because the capital structure of South Africa is built by whites not blacks, because all the institutions and infrastructures which make a modern first world nation were built by whites, paid for whites more accurately...which is an absolute necessity...if someone won't pay for it it does not happen. And many problems in modern Africa are because no one will invest in those countries to bring them up to the modern world.

South African economics are doomed to fail because blacks cannot be justly compensated. Whites owe them nothing but half the black population is not competitive, a majority of black communities are not only under developed but entirely lack economic activity and so what ever money is made is exported to buy necessities.

The result is animosity between whites and blacks.

The great blood-bath that was thought to need to happen to bring an end to Apartheid will be very ironic.

It will be decades late, and it will undoubtedly return the Country to Apartheid.

Whites own the economy and thus they own the military industrial complex, which is largely worked by whites, the military reserves the most of its funds for its white soldiers, and whites smuggle and cache weapons that blacks could not even dream to afford.

But blacks are growing more and more agitated by the lack of economic progress that was supposed to come with democracy; and as Africanhope has shown briefly but as can be expanded upon more greatly, the economic situation is worsening not getting better, and blacks know this.

A civil war is most likely to develop and probably over an issue of foreign policy particularly over the ANC's relationship with China and Zimbabwe both relationships are detested by many whites in South Africa and both relationships will lead South Africa into commitments later on that simply imbalance the internal situations in South Africa. This is most likely but not the only triggers, a number of internal issues are powder-kegs right now.

So what's going to happen is Apartheid all over again, in another form most likely and it will be born in blood undoubtedly.

The question is what should the future hold for this inevitability (and that's a debatable conclusion but I am pretty sure it is inevitable).

Well South Africa will not long retain popularity in the global scene regardless of a civil war when it comes to white supremacy and so there are a few but powerful limited options.

1) South Africa creates several companies in Switzerland and other neutral banking nations for acquiring foreign assets and foreign currencies.

2) South Africa develops relationships with nations by necessity and not by ideology (as it did during the Cold War) this means further developing a Chinese relationship as China will turn a blind eye to internal politics of South Africa. The best way is a mutual relationship; South Africa trades directly with China on terms favorable for a South African industrial base (for a Military Industrial Complex) and in return develops Chinese gold mines and other mines as well as creates a trading pipe-line.

3) South Africa must subsidize a merchant-marine fleet since currently no fleet flies under South Africa's flag, this is necessary for ensuring favorable contracts for exports and gaining an edge in the maritime market as well as creating a need for a future Navy.

4) South Africa finishes and develops and deploys Nuclear Weapons.

5) South Africa utilizes a monetary policy to capture and control African Trade: How:

- South Africa agrees to import raw materials only in Rand with African nations by agreement that these African nations receive a discount on necessary imports such as foods in exchange for those Rand, thus creating an economic exchange in Rand on the continent. Through power politics, political warfare, and possibly open warfare, South Africa encourages the direct trade between Africa and South Africa and becomes a middle man for Africa and the world. The way to further this development is to use China as the muscle-man and to encourage China's cooperation by ensuring that South Africa will trade African resources to China first.

6) South Africa uses its leveraged economic power to expand in various ways; either directly by irredentism such as in South-West Africa or Rhodesia or by blatant invasion for economic security as in Botswana: How:

-South Africa clandestinely causes political instability in economically important regions and uses force to impose dictators or other leaders that are favorable to South Africa's regime that is more requiring of South Africa's liberal weapons trading policy to stay in power.

This furthers South Africa's Military Industrial Complex.

This is pretty much how things should go after the shit hits the fan and it most likely will...

Anyone that has a complaint first go whine about all of the American nations (every one of them) and Australia, or New Zealand, or any other number of nations that all got rid of their Native Problem.

Africa would not be the mess it is today if South Africans, Afrikaners, Britts, whoever, got rid of their Native Problem in the same way.

While I'm sure this is a racist thread, I just want to point out that it is pretty poor form to begin your thread with a criticism of another poster:

"I am glad that Africanhope has finally woken-up to the growing racial problem in South Africa for a lot of his African posts (I have been perusing them since reading your SA post hope you don't mind) I have the feeling that you've tried to look the other way to the growing problems in South Africa's society largely expressed in crime but the roots of which we both know to be in economics."

In the future, it would be better just to make whatever appalling comments you have to make in your opening post without singling out another poster for criticism.

__________________
"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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I was not criticizing him but directly referencing something else he had talked about - in fact this is almost entirely clear.

"I am glad that Africanhope has finally woken-up to the growing racial problem in South Africa for a lot of his African posts (I have been perusing them since reading your SA post hope you don't mind) I have the feeling that you've tried to look the other way to the growing problems in South Africa's society largely expressed in crime but the roots of which we both know to be in economics."

Where do you see "criticism"? It's commentary on his views so that a better discussion can be made since Africanhope leads discussions usually and since his views are actually quite clear but not always in tandem with my own (obviously).

I always welcome an open discussion on issues surrounding my country, and therefore welcome this thread. The problem is that the op is so full of false facts and half truths, it is difficult to know where to begin, and it will take some time to answer them all, and time is not something I have an abundance
of.

Before I begin, I must also mirror WEB's feelings, and make a request - This thread is already borderline racist, and I must therefore ask all participants in this thread to please be very careful, and tread very lightly, as racism will not be tolerated in whatever form, from anyone, not by this forum, I have been here long enough to know this, and not by myself.

That having been said let me make one thing clear. I am not waking up to anything, Global, the thread you are refering to, strengthens my long held views about SA; it does not go against it. I have many times condemned my governments handling if important issues, and made it clear that I will never be able to support this government because of three main issues, it handling of HIV, crime, and the poverty question. I live here, so, as someone living here, I am well aware of the country's problems. What I refuse to do is immediately point fingers to black government. We have a bad government, but their race has nothing to do with it. And they are in no ways worse than the government we had, who officially killed people, and who also did not handle the HIV problem, and who only gave stats for white people, so that things like crime and poverty now look a lot worse, whilst they were always quite bad if you take the whole population into account.

Again, you want to penalise black people because they were not allowed to take part in any economic action. This is the only reason why whites build the economic capacity, and on the backs of the black population. And following your logic, then everything must now belong to English South Africans and Jewish South Africans, as it is them who build the economics and banking sector of this country. It was only when they finally seized total power in 1948 that government used the law to redistribute the wealth away from these two groups in to Afrikaner hands. The government funded and found the big banks etc. and made sure, through groups like the Afrikaner Brotherhood that the money goes to Afrikaner pockets. They thus redistributed the wealth, by discriminating against other whites too. But they did not build it, the investments came from the UK, so, again, following your logic, only English South Africans should own everything, right?

Also, saying it was paid for by the whites is not all true. They did not have to pay the full amount, first of all, again, because of the cheap labour, second, because black South Africans did not pay in hard cash, this was not available to them, but in the only real currency they had – land. This country was build not only with money, but from mineral wealth and agricultural wealth, both of these in many instances taken from the black population, or ‘bought’ at ridiculous prices. So, very clearly, black South African also paid for the banks and the economic structures, through two very important commodities, labour and land.

But let us go to your post, and look at some parts;

Whites do not own then anything? Really? Taking much of their land, using them as cheap labour, making sure they get third rate education (and we are paying the price for that now, aren’t we!) taking away many of their basic rights, killing some of them, and yet, whites own black South Africans nothing...? I cannot agree with that. Do not get me wrong – I am not for some sort of collective guilt, or debt payment, that makes no sense, and who decides who is guilty, who not, etc. etc. etc. But saying whites owe blacks nothing, are a fallacy, and a dangerous one at that. No, wealth should not be taken away from one group, and just given to an uneducated other – the Zimbabwe approach, as this is a dangerous approach. But much must be done to gradually make sure the wealth is distributed more equally. And that is happening, just too slow in SA. Saying blacks d no own anything, or are lazy and all those other arguments are plain wrong. Two of the five riches South Africans are black. Cyril Ramaphosa and Tokyo Sexwale are well known, internationally renowned industrialist and businessmen, who build up their companies. And they are not alone. None of the big companies in SA is solely in white hands anymore. Black South Africans are now fully fledged participants in the advanced economy of this country.

The problem is this wealth is still in the hands of a few, the wealth is not trickling down to the masses.

And about your remarks about black south Africans no being compensated – you will find that most of them, excluding a fringe minority like the radical PAC, don’t want a compensation – they want roofs over their heads, food on their tables, a good education for their children and thus the change to compete fairly and equally for jobs, etc. No compensation – which has not been a part of discussion for a long time in SA, except for compensation for white farmers who’s farms are bought by government, all on land taken away from black South Africans, mostly without compensation.

Also, on the economy failing, I have posted this so often, I will not spend too much time on it. If we are doomed to failure, why have we had our longest continuous economic growth in our history and the highest the last decade? Yes, it is slowing down a bit now, but the whole world market, and more so the developing or emerging markets are under pressure due to happenings in the US economy. If we are failing so badly, why is it going so well? Never, not even in the heyday of gold, has this economy, when it as in white hands, done so well. This is fact, not pipe dreams and doom prophecies.

Actually hoping for a blood bath, and awaiting (from this and other posts in the other thread, I must say that it seems you are wishing for it) the return of Apartheid, I will not even qualify with an answer, I will let the other posters on this forum, some of whom I know and trust, decide for themselves the foundations and quality of that remark, if you do not mind.

Again, false facts. The weapons industry in SA is a highly regulated one. The biggest military company is called Denel (old Krygcor) and his fully in government, and thus the people of SA, all of them, ownership. Military industry is therefore not totally in white hands, but yes, there will some, very small, companies in partly white ownership, and others in black ownership. (I say partly, since government is obviously the biggest buyer, and under law, they will not buy from companies totally in white hands).

I live in a town which is both a military town and a university town. Bu boyfriend’s brother in law is a mayor in the army here. Walk around, and you will not see many white soldiers, many of them left after 1994, not willing to fight or die for this country anymore. All soldiers are treated equally. Top command is now mostly black, not white, and last year we had the Minister of Defence begging white people to join the military, to bring the numbers back up. This little dream you state here of a military still in white hands, with the best guns for white soldiers would have been funny if it was not so sad.

No, the economic situation is not getting worse, the divide is getting worse, and on that I will agree that much has to be done.

It is clear that you assume that white people will start the civil war you are whishing for. As whites are much richer now than before 1994, they will realise they have much to lose of a war breaks out. Also, since it is a fringe of the white population who truly wants the old days back, it would only be small number of them. They already tried, a group called Boeremag. They blew up one power substation and a train track, and the whole organisation was caught, and the case is in court right now. Their attempts were laughed at, and widely condemned by all walks of South African society. And you also assume that whites disagree with the Zim policy and blacks agree. Strange then that the largest representative group of the black population except for the ANC, the Trade Union COSATU, continues to openly condemn the SA governments handling of the issue, and calls for more action to be taken against uncle Bob. No civil war waiting on this issue or any other that is for sure.

And then on your points, most of this is nothing new, it is exactly what the old government tried to do, most of it anyway, and with very very little success. And just some facts, SA already completed a nuclear program, we had 6 bombs, but it was destroyed by FW de Klerk. We will not go down that horrible road again.

Oh, and one other thing, I don’t get, you mention as one of the reasons whites are becoming restless, the close relationship with China, and then you say after the whites have taken the country (How exactly is 4 milj, people going to defeat 40 mil?) they should have very close ties with China? I only bring this up to proof your double standards, half truths and wrong conclusions based on very little facts.
Let me repeat myself a bit here – I am not blind to the many shortcomings in SA, and more so in our less than satisfactory government. But, thinking it is because we have a black government is wrong and racist. Thinking it was better in the old days, is based on wrong information – even for white people things are much better now, on many fronts. Thinking a return to that failed policy (and that is why it ended, it failed, plain and simple) will solve this countries many problems, is to be just as short-sighted as the current government. We have problems, yes, but we must use our brilliant constitution and our diversity to solve these problems. Dividing ourselves once more will not do the trick, just like it did not do the trick last time.
AH

PS. Let me just add this on consumr confidence, aparently the South Africans do not agree with Globals summary of the state of our nation -

South African consumer confidence still positive

__________________
"A man is not defeated by his opponents but by himself."
"Not Wilson, but humanity failed at Paris."

Jan Smuts

AAAhhh yes, Genocide. Brilliant solution.... ....



Civil War in South Africa, WW3 eminent. You heard it here first !

I will respond partially now and fully later - first to just clarify some points for further readers.

1) The impression I get from you is you ignore the growing economic burden that is causing social tension and flat out rifting or polarisation (to mis-use the term in terms of Political Science) in favor that the current regime is at least better than the former. I highly disagree with that on several levels, but foremost from a pragmatically historical view point.

2) Considering your blame I think it is common but ill-placed; it is not the government's fault, there is little that can be done to remedy the problems because the problems are almost entirely due to two separate economic systems due to separate development for entire history of the region.

3) I agree with you about who truly owns South Africa (English and Jews) and Afrikanerdom is more a phenomenon than a reality and in the future the effort should be as a whole not as separate white ethnic groups vying for control of a system. Considering my own ethnicity I would see nothing wrong with Rooi domination of South Africa but they are a broken tribe, who has hung themselves out to die. I emphasize the idea of any white in Africa being an "Afrikaner" since they are all the "White Tribe of Africa".

4) To argue effectively that blacks were in part responsible for the building of South Africa you'd have to argue that they were necessary, and they were not - this was in fact part of the problem between whites where the different groups segregated themselves and the English were more apt to use the cheap black labor instead of employing the poor urban Afrikaners. But clearly cheap labor from anyone was available more or less.

5) With regards to ownership - yes whites own everything they provided the capital that gave blacks their cheap jobs building roads or etc. rather than subsistence farming...what you are doing is making a moral argument which I'm disinterested in hearing moral arguments (no offense).

6) You arguments against Apartheid by citing wealthy blacks ignores that the first black "millionaire" in South Africa accomplished this during Apartheid. During the 70s in fact. Apartheid did not reduce the abilities of a black man to accomplish anything; except it sought to remove the black man from the white owned economy. Whatever wealth the black man made in dealing with that economy as if he were a foreign businessman, etc. was far outside the restrictions of Apartheid. Apartheid is after all separation - not discrimination - though the effect became both.

7) The Bloodbath will be an inevitability and the victor is obvious the reasons as I explained are because this problem is not solveable and the blacks will tire of living in the shadow of apartheid and do what anyone else would do - attempt a forced redistribution of wealth. When it happens at the degree necessary to effect change (if legally) whites will make the first move and seek to secede or take over...if it is a popular revolt (violence induced by a political party or fanatics or such) it can be any number of factors.

8) You cannot site just one industry of many that are involved in armaments but - even the state programs are in fact privately sponsored and it still is more to show that blacks do not have the armaments industry to rely upon as it is peopled with whites, it is reliant upon whites and blacks in the military and their ability to coordinate logistics...which falls highly in favor of whites. A lot goes into the armaments discussions.

9) I wouldn't trust black commanders in their abilities more than I would whites simply because the whites have a better system of training youths to adult hood, the blacks are political appointments more than accomplished appointments considering South Africa's lack of engagements and large scale training programs there is no way for any officers to be appointed outside of political appointments any more.

10) What you reference to are extremists the economic situation (which is the divide) has not heated to a boil yet so of course most the people fall in the middle ground of apathetic to any cause. Just like in wealthy nations you don't see communists over-throwing governments. No one cares, they are content. But obviously the majority of South Africa isn't headed into the content side of things....

11) I know you don't understand the Chinese comments because I rushed them...

China is in Africa just about anything the old guard of whites has opposed, Mozambique next door is the shining example of Maoist indoctrination...but when things hit the fan what I am saying is that we need to get past this - China is the escape route because there will be too much media propaganda against a resurgence of white power and rule in South Africa.

China won't care what goes on as long as they make money and see job growth - it is a deal with the devil to some (not my views) but it would be a necessary promotion.

12) I agree that an exact return to the former Apartheid is not the answer - that government was very limiting in its own policies mainly it did not capitalize upon its own financial and monetary strengths but partially it could not because of the Cold War and the constant instability in Africa.

Now South Africa can use African problems to its advantage and capture more and more market share by firm and powerful financial/monetary policies.

The disenfranchisement of the black will most certainly happen whoever starts it (because of the divide of wealth) - the whites will end it...and my suggestions for what we should do about the future of South Africa after that is to knuckle down, power-politic the rest of the Continent into eventual submission...

And as South Africa's power waxes it should deal with its native problem in exactly the same way the USA dealt with theirs. And I would prefer not to be called a racist for this especially by Americans - unless they give up their land and all that they built to the natives they removed.

The future of Africa will not lay in Black African hands because they are exploited by everyone even their own leaders...as natives are by colonial powers and pretending to be non-colonial powers.

But South Africa can use an extreme government (and it will be extreme after a bloodbath over the wealth of the nation) to basically conquer all of Africa not so much directly but through controlling Africa's trade...at least that's the first step.

When we get past settling the arguments about what will happen to create this extreme government then we can start better discussing how the strategy to implement real and effective domination of African markets can be employed in a way that the old Afrikaners never have dreamt of.

Wow, more inaccuracies, like your defition of Afrikaners, and your (delibarate) is-use of my statment of Jewish South Africans and English South Africans.

But thee is much to say, and little time to say it in.

Iwill come back later, but justonce more ask that these racist comments, which keeps creeping up, be kept in check please.

but I will return later.

AH

__________________
"A man is not defeated by his opponents but by himself."
"Not Wilson, but humanity failed at Paris."

Jan Smuts

Saying that someone has "finally woken up" is criticizing them for having been completely oblivious for a very long time. It's a very personal and critical way to start a thread which is supposed to be about an issue and not about someone who disagrees with you.

In any case, due to your breaking of the rules on other threads and complaints about the moderation of this forum, we have given you leave of it.

__________________
"Of course the fact that a person believes in racial equality doesn't prove that he's a communist...but it certainly makes you look twice, doesn't it? You can't get away from the fact that racial equality is part of the communist line." - Joseph McCarthy

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Bravo.

__________________
Ard Druid..

To Global Strategist.
Firstly many of the ANC Blacks are all Armed.Also I feel your post is filled with
mighty Whitey Racist falsehoods.The Whites that came to south Africa murdered the indigenous Blacks, stole
Billions in natural resources from this stolen land and continue to steal from the Black South Africans Zulu and inkata
peoples.If we look at what happened in
Zimbabwe, where whites lost a War to the majority Black indigenous population,
we can forsee a similar situation unfolding
in South Africa at some point in the future.If whites built most of the infrastructure in South Africa with the help of Black labor, that doesn't make them rightfull inheritors of the land.It is still land stolen from Blacks, which is still a
crime againts humanity that no whites
in South Africa has been duly punished for!!!.Whites must pay reparations to All Blacks in South Africa or leave the country immediately!!.