TitusCicero

I just watched this $#%^'ing idiot on Larry King. He's almost as stupid as GWB.

He doesn't believe in evolution. I suppose he believes the God placed the dinosaur bones to test our faith and that the earth is only 7000 years old.

He also said the idiotic thing that he would hand over the illegal immigration issue over to the credit card companies. WTF!?

How could an idiot like this get as far as he has?

I wanted to throw my TV out the window

I wrote a letter to his campaign web site:

Subject: Your great Mike!

eryan2369

I dont know what statistics your looking at...but im pretty sure most forms of birth control, even as simple as the pill, is generally somewhere around 99.9% effective by itself...now combine birth control pills along with using a condom and you have not only somewhere around 1 in a million chance of pregnancy but are protected against sexually transmitted disease as well. So I suppose if 1 in a million is not effective I guess your right?!

And as far as the law not recognizing a fetus as a person and therefore its not murder; that my point exactly!...a fetus is a person and the law has that very fundamental fact WRONG! Thanks for making my point for me!

AzTeK

In an article I read it said he believed that the theory of evolution is atleast not more likely than the theory of god creating everything It's rather funny...I mean seriously, you have hard prooven facts, all evidence speaks against you, but you still deny it? That reminds me of...let's see...WMD's in Iraq?

Such an attitude is dangerous in politics, eventhough as a person of course I respect his and everyone elses religion.

Neways Freya stated it pretty clearly in my oppinion. You can argue about abortion, surely not about Holocaust. Appart from that, since when do we call every barbaric act where millions of people are killed "Holocaust"? What about the crisis in the Darfur region? Is that Holocaust 3.0? Wait, we should be way past 3.0 actually...

I see that we will not come to an agreement on wether abortion is good or bad, and I see that from some points of view, Abortion could be (marginally) COMPARED to Holocaust - but surely not equated with it. According to what I've read, Huckabee is saying it's basically one and the same, which It simply is not.

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eryan2369

So your saying it is marginally comparitive to holocaust, but you dont see a problem with this as a legal action??? ...

I gotta say, someone who uses holocaust in the same breathe to describe anything thats legal, even stating it as "borderline"...and is ok with that...thats pretty damn scarry!

The very fact that such a large section of the population believes that abortion is comparible in ANY way to holocaust is proof enough that there is a major problem here!

AzTeK

You should really get the facts right there, these are dangerous waters you are swimming in

The pill is not 99.9% effective by itself. Not even the "perfect use failure rate" is 99.9%. In fact, the typical failure rate of the pill is 8%, the male condom even whooping 15%! Statistically seen (.08*.15), if you combine those two you end up with a typical failure rate of 1.2%. That's a hell of a lot of unwanted pregnancies if you take into consideration the amount of times (even Americans ) have sex each year!

And yes, I must agree with you. 1 in a 100 is surely not effective enough

Hell, even male/female sterilization has a typical failure rate of 0.15%/0.5%!

Source: Comparison of birth control methods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well then get ready to change your entire legal system buddy, coz that fact there, as inhumane as it might seem, is all over the place (eventhough I don't know for sure how the US Legal system looks, I can only speak for Austria and most of Europe)

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eryan2369

Regardless of the exact statistics of success, people still know the risk they take having sex, unprotected or otherwise. And even though the alternative to be 100% sure you do not have an unwanted pregnancy is a major inconvience (not having sex)...I dont believe being inconvenienced makes it alright to kill a human being!

And as far as "changing the entire legal system"...there was a time in this country, not so long ago acutually, that African Americans were considered second class citizens by law! They werent allowed to sit with whites, go to school with them, drink from the same water fountains or use the same bathrooms....

Just because the law is f***** up and doesnt recognize a fetus as a human being today there is no reason people cant exact change and make this attrocity right...Maybe 50 years from now the next generation will look back and say "wow, I cant believe how backwards they were back then and how they allowed that to go on for so long before making it right"!

AzTeK

Wait you'r misquoting me there, careful . I said it COULD be compared to Holocaust, not that I compare it to Holocaust. I would never do that, otherwise I wouldn't have opened this thread. I believe there are worlds appart between the two topics, but as I always try to look at stuff from all points of view (including and specially people who disagree with me), I said that under a certain logic, if you believe in certain things, I would understand you can come to a conclusion like that.

Actually I believe that "a large section of the population" doesn't even have the slightest clue of what any of the candidates stands for in debth. In other words, "a large section of the population" is probably ignorant to the fact Huckabee is equating abortion to Holocaust.

I never said it can't be done, I just said you should start going about it coz it's not gonna be easy.

Appart from that you could argue about wether abortion is forward-thinking or backward-thinking. I, for one, think that (specially scientifically), it falls into the first category.

But as I said we won't come to an agreement on "Pro vs. Con" of abortion, eventhough I'm thankful for everyones contribution and insight.

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eryan2369

[quote=AzTeK;118308]
Appart from that you could argue about wether abortion is forward-thinking or backward-thinking. I, for one, think that (specially scientifically), it falls into the first category.QUOTE]

Well, to relate it to the subject of the thread...there were lots of people who thought Hitler was a "forward thinking" person and was doing the right thing too! As for me, I think legalized mass murder is pretty damn backwards!

AzTeK

For the sake of the discussion I will for now ignore you just basically called me a Nazi or atleast fascist. Wait, actually you just strengthened my argument that Holocaust can't be compared to Abortion right there. By saying my beliefs can be compared to fascism you disqualified the argument that abortion can be compared to Holocaust.

What about "aborting" in the first month of pregnancy? A fetus heart doesn't start beating until 22 days after "coming to be". Would that also be mass murder? Can you kill something that doesn't even live?

22 days is a dam short timespan, but I'd like to know what you think of it.

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eryan2369

First of all, no, I dont believe I did just disqualify the argument...I believe I strengethened it....but if you want to twist things to suit yourself then thats your opinion.

Second, I would offer a compromise that I think would satisfy most people on my side of the debate. I believe the "morning after pill" should be available over the counter...

There are still going to be some people on my side of the debate, primarily the deeply religous sect, that are going to argue that once the egg is fertilized thats the beginning of life and therefore any post-fertilization contreceptive is wrong...thats why these groups already oppose the morning after pill...

But, I think if it was offered as a compromise...repeal roe vs. wade and make abortion illegal, but the morning after pill be available over the counter...well, both sides get some victory. The pro-abortioners can no longer argue "what about rape victims"...rape victims could be given the morning after pill. "What about the fact (that you have argued) that even using contreceptives is not 100% effective"...well, now you can use a contreceptive and the morning after pill if you want to ensure no pregnancy...

You will still have the far radical argument that even pregnancy in first few hours is still pregnancy, but I think most of your average people on my side of the fence would be willing to accept that compromise...that a fertilized egg alone, within hours of fertilization, is acceptable to terminate....not a fetus bearing human characteristics, including a heartbeat after just 22 days as you yourself stated.

Isnt that usually the way major issues get resoved?...with compromise? Since you cant make everyone happy either way doesnt that make sense?