Rich vs. Poor - Page 5 - Political Forum

perdidochas · #41 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

Well sadly, there isn't anything to "buy": it is a fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and is responsible for global warming. And co2 is a poisonous gas.

It has not been proven that atmospheric CO2 causes global warming. If you have an article that proves it, please show it.

You are breathing in carbon dioxide as we speak. It's not poisoning you in the least. Oxygen is also a poisonous gas (at 2 atmospheres of pressure). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen_toxicity All gases in high concentrations can be poisonous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

As for sources, there is one a provided earlier which I will give again and another that shows that CO2 is a poisonous gas:

Colliery Gases - Carbon Dioxide or Carbonic Acid Gas (not Carbonic Acid)
United States of America: Oil, Pollution and Kyoto

All this to say that the U.S is run by business interests, or else why would we not ratify Kyoto?

We didn't ratify Kyoto because it interferes unfairly with our sovereignity--also the majority of the people in the country at the time were against it. It punishes the currently industrialized world without limiting the real problem, which is the developing world. The Western World isn't the great danger in the near future--China and India are.

baxter · #42 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 06:44 PM

How does it interfere in any way with the notion of sovereignty??

Your proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and therefore a cause of global warming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._by_Sector.png

If it punishes so greatly the industrial world, how is it that nearly every other country on Earth ratified it?

FRYandBENDER · #43 (**permalink**) 05-24-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

How does it interfere in any way with the notion of sovereignty??

Your proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and therefore a cause of global warming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._by_Sector.png

If it punishes so greatly the industrial world, how is it that nearly every other country on Earth ratified it?

Because it tells us how we should run our businesses. And it does so in such a way that puts us at a disadvantage and others at an advantage.

perdidochas · #44 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

How does it interfere in any way with the notion of sovereignty??

Your proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and therefore a cause of global warming:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._by_Sector.png

A wiki is proof of nothing. I can make a wiki tomorrow that says that the moon is made out of cheese.

I want science, which, having studied this issue for 20 yrs, I know is not there. CO2 is suspected as a greenhouse gas, but there is no definitive proof of it. IMHO, global warming is caused by a solar cycle. A few examples: 1) when a glacier in the Alps melted, they found a silver mine that had been abandoned one winter. WHy? The glacier had grown during historical times, and grew over the silver mine. The recent warm-up uncovered the silver mine . 2) Another example is the Medieval Warm Period. Read up on it. 3) A final example is that Mars is also warming. Is it just coincidence that two different planets warmed by the same sun are warming at the same time? I do not think so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

If it punishes so greatly the industrial world, how is it that nearly every other country on Earth ratified it?

They are stupid. WHile a lot of countries ratified it, most aren't complying with it.

For example, by 2012, Japan should have reduced it's CO2 production by 6%. Instead, by 2003, they are up by 6.3%. Japanese officials said that if they weren't in the economic doldrums, things would have been worse.

Basically, Kyoto was a pipe dream that nobody is following. At least the U.S. was honest enough to not ratify it, instead of ratifying and not complying.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=12294

baxter · #45 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Because it tells us how we should run our businesses. And it does so in such a way that puts us at a disadvantage and others at an advantage.

How does it put anybody at an advantage except the U.S being as everyone else has signed it?

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At least the U.S. was honest enough to not ratify it, instead of ratifying and not complying.

Well at least Japan is making efforts to moderate global warming even if they aren't building all the nuclear power plants they said they needed (12) but are building 8 of them.

Don't you think that if major countries are taking measures to reduce CO2 emissions, they have scientific assurances that CO2 is responsible for global warming and aren't just acting on a hunch?

Global Warming -- Research Issues

Troianii · #46 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perdidochas

A wiki is proof of nothing. I can make a wiki tomorrow that says that the moon is made out of cheese.

I want science, which, having studied this issue for 20 yrs, I know is not there. CO2 is suspected as a greenhouse gas, but there is no definitive proof of it. IMHO, global warming is caused by a solar cycle. A few examples: 1) when a glacier in the Alps melted, they found a silver mine that had been abandoned one winter. WHy? The glacier had grown during historical times, and grew over the silver mine. The recent warm-up uncovered the silver mine . 2) Another example is the Medieval Warm Period. Read up on it. 3) A final example is that Mars is also warming. Is it just coincidence that two different planets warmed by the same sun are warming at the same time? I do not think so.

They are stupid. WHile a lot of countries ratified it, most aren't complying with it.

For example, by 2012, Japan should have reduced it's CO2 production by 6%. Instead, by 2003, they are up by 6.3%. Japanese officials said that if they weren't in the economic doldrums, things would have been worse.

Basically, Kyoto was a pipe dream that nobody is following. At least the U.S. was honest enough to not ratify it, instead of ratifying and not complying.

Kyoto Compliance in Shambles - by James M. Taylor - The Heartland Institute

Well, supposing that CO2 really is all as bad as people want to beleive it is, it might be worthwhile to notice that one volcanic eruption releases more than we ever have. Really makes you wonder - how big is our impact? And is the microspocicly minute difference that we could make worth sacrificing our economy?

Sure, there are some clear problems, like contaminating our waters, but for the most part we do things really well in America, and the global warming theory is a joke.

perdidochas · #47 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

How does it put anybody at an advantage except the U.S being as everyone else has signed it?

Kyoto has different standards of emissions for different countries.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

Well at least Japan is making efforts to moderate global warming even if they aren't building all the nuclear power plants they said they needed (12) but are building 8 of them.

Their emissions have been rising, not falling. They are currently 6% over 1990 levels, when in 6 yrs they should be 6% under 1990 levels. That's a big difference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

Don't you think that if major countries are taking measures to reduce CO2 emissions, they have scientific assurances that CO2 is responsible for global warming and aren't just acting on a hunch?

I've studied the science for 20 yrs. I was once convinced that man causes global warming, but the more I study it, the less I think we do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

Global Warming -- Research Issues

That's the closest thing to valid research you've posted yet. However, that report doesn't convince me. I just don't think that climatology is advanced enough to truly explain the variables.

baxter · #48 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 02:26 PM

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Kyoto has different standards of emissions for different countries.

The emissions standard are set in relation to the country's population.

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Sure, there are some clear problems, like contaminating our waters, but for the most part we do things really well in America, and the global warming theory is a joke.

Do you really think that countries would damage their economy by reducing their carbon emissions if it was a "joke"? And what are you talking about when you say that "for the most part we do things really well in America"?

perdidochas · #49 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by baxter

The emissions standard are set in relation to the country's population.

And the nation's development level. The standards for China per person are much higher than the standards for the U.S. per person. The real growth in pollution in the next century will be occuring in the developing world. Kyoto basically allows them to do what they want, with only the developed countries having to reduce emissions. Thankfully, our Senate decided not to ratify it.

baxter · #50 (**permalink**) 05-25-2007, 05:30 PM

Quote:

And the nation's development level. The standards for China per person are much higher than the standards for the U.S. per person. The real growth in pollution in the next century will be occuring in the developing world. Kyoto basically allows them to do what they want, with only the developed countries having to reduce emissions. Thankfully, our Senate decided not to ratify it.

Is it not better to get China to agree to make some concessions on its environmental policies (however small they are) than to have China not sign it at all because it would be imposing a complete halt in the Chinese economy.