Difference Between Hillary Clinton and Ron Paul - Page 4 - Political Forum

GlobalSmiles · #31 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 02:07 PM

Ron Paul seems to forget the whole purpose of the Navy in the US Constitution then.

Naval Act of 1794 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Defense of our merchant class abroad is very important, and I think you can safely say it was those policies that caused the trouble you seek to blame on the US.

calmObserver · #32 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GlobalSmiles

Ron Paul seems to forget the whole purpose of the Navy in the US Constitution then.

Naval Act of 1794 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Defense of our merchant class abroad is very important, and I think you can safely say it was those policies that caused the trouble you seek to blame on the US.

i will give you just two of many examples that have absolutely nothing to do with the link you posted;

Quote:

Mohammad Mosaddeq was a major figure in modern Iranian history who served as the Prime Minister of Iran from 1951 to 1953 when he was removed from power by a coup d'état. From an aristocratic background, Mossadegh was a nationalist and passionately opposed foreign intervention in Iran. An author, administrator, lawyer, prominent parliamentarian, and statesman, he is most famous as the architect of the nationalization of the Iranian oil industry, which had been under British control through the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company (AIOC), today known as British Petroleum (BP).

Mossadegh was removed from power on August 19, 1953, in a coup d'état, supported and funded by the British and U.S. governments and led by General Fazlollah Zahedi. The American operation came to be known as Operation Ajax in America, after its CIA cryptonym, and as the "28 Mordad 1332" coup in Iran, after its date on the Iranian calendar. Dr. Mosaddeq was imprisoned for three years and subsequently put under house arrest until his death.

In Iran and many countries, Mosaddeq is known as a hero of Third World anti-imperialism and victim of imperialist greed. for more...

Quote:

The Chilean coup d'état of 1973 was a watershed event in the history of Chile and the Cold War. Historians and partisans alike have wrangled over its implications ever since.

On September 11, 1973, less than two months after the first failed coup attempt (Tanquetazo), and less than a month after the Chamber of Deputies, where the Opposition held a majority, condemned Allende's alleged breaches of the constitution and requested his forcible removal, the Chilean military overthrew president Salvador Allende, who died during the coup. US intervention in Chilean politics and support to opponents of Allende, including support for an assassination, has been documented by the declassification in 1998 of documents concerning the Project FUBELT operations, although its exact nature is still controversial. General Augusto Pinochet took over and established an anti-communist military dictatorship which lasted until 1990. for more...

in both cases duly elected governments were overthrow and replaced with despotic autocrats complete with their implements of terror complements of u.s. government and we the people ~ see; Mohammad Reza Pahlavi and Augusto Pinochet

calmObserver · #33 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

...Our foreign policy has been the result of the popular will of the people...

i doubt if 20% of american people are aware of the facts of the two cases i listed above (iran and chile).

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #34 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

i doubt if 20% of american people are aware of the facts of the two cases i listed above (iran and chile).

That's not why Ron Paul calls us terrorist. Ron Paul calls us terrorist for our BLATANT and WELL-KNOWN foreign policy, like simply having troops in Saudi Arabia. Our countrymen may very well be stupid enough not to realize where we attacked Iraq from in 1991, but enough of us do know that we attacked Iraq from bases in Saudi Arabia. It was covered on the news extensively at the time. This is why Ron Paul says that we deserved 9/11. So he and his supporters may say that the US is "terroristic" or supports terrorism through foreign governments, but that is not actually consistent with what they say. Ron Paulists say that we are terrorist because of foreign policy that the American citizens were informed of and supported through elections. Ergo, Ron Paul calls American citizens and the government terrorist.

How does it feel to be a terrorist?

GlobalSmiles · #35 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

i doubt if 20% of american people are aware of the facts of the two cases i listed above (iran and chile).

I did, so don't think you are blind siding me. Iran had its reasons and Chile is in our side of the Earth, so tough shit there imo.

This idea that our foreign policy should be a pretty angel on prom night is farcical. No big wars this side of the planet period. I don't care who we screw to keep that the case. This means hegemony. Anyone who threatens that hegemony is an enemy f the US.

My point was that our policies in these regions are usually about defending our interests in the area, which the founding of the US Navy was intended for, so that his whole point is flawed at least in the way its represented here.

Actually whats cute is that you don't even see e point I gave to you, Iran was directly about protecting American interests and Chile was generally as well. Nationalizing an industry you had little part in building and paying for is tantamount to the highest form of theft man knows in my and many other's opinions.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #36 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 08:31 PM

bododie and NoMoreDems&Reps posts moved to banned posters thread. Posts of banned users

WEB

calmObserver · #37 (**permalink**) 05-14-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

...like simply having troops in Saudi Arabia...

bin laden has told us why he went to war with us. scheuer who was head of the Bin Laden Issue Station in the cia wrote a book telling us why. raimondo summarized it for us, and yes one of the issues was "U.S and other Western troops on the Arabian peninsula";

U.S. support for Israel that keeps Palestinians in the Israelis' thrall
U.S and other Western troops on the Arabian peninsula
U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan
U.S. support for Russia, India, and China against their Muslim militants
U.S. pressure on Arab energy producers to keep oil prices low
U.S. support for apostate, corrupt, and often tyrannical Muslim governments

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

...Our countrymen may very well be stupid enough not to realize where we attacked Iraq from in 1991, but enough of us do know that we attacked Iraq from bases in Saudi Arabia.

It was covered on the news extensively at the time. This is why Ron Paul says that we deserved 9/11...

i think you are confused ~ it was because our troops remained in "land of the two holy cities" after the gulf war, and recall we got them the hell out of there after we invaded iraq, and indication that even bush understood.

still, there are the remaining 5 items on the list.

Sebelius for VP, not Hillary · #38 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 03:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

bin laden has told us why he went to war with us. scheuer who was head of the Bin Laden Issue Station in the cia wrote a book telling us why. raimondo summarized it for us, and yes one of the issues was "U.S and other Western troops on the Arabian peninsula";

U.S. support for Israel that keeps Palestinians in the Israelis' thrall
U.S and other Western troops on the Arabian peninsula
U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan
U.S. support for Russia, India, and China against their Muslim militants
U.S. pressure on Arab energy producers to keep oil prices low
U.S. support for apostate, corrupt, and often tyrannical Muslim governments

I know about all that. However, none of this undercuts what I've said, which is merely showing what Ron Paul said: that 9/11 is the US' fault because "we're over there."

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

i think you are confused ~ it was because our troops remained in "land of the two holy cities" after the gulf war, and recall we got them the hell out of there after we invaded iraq, and indication that even bush understood.

What is your evidence for your comments about our troops in Saudi Arabia: "recall we got them the hell out of there after we invaded Iraq?" Can you show evidence that we removed all of our troops from Saudi Arabia? Even if you could, it would still be difficult to see what your point is. I would just like to see if you could show that your basic factual claims are true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by calmObserver

still, there are the remaining 5 items on the list.

wink, wink, yeah, so what?

The list is the US' fault, ergo 9/11 is the US' fault and that's why you support Ron Paul? wink, wink, what was that supposed to prove? How did you help yourself with this post?

calmObserver · #39 (**permalink**) 05-15-2008, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

I know about all that. However, none of this undercuts what I've said, which is merely showing what Ron Paul said: that 9/11 is the US' fault because "we're over there."...

your moving the goal posts. you said; "like simply having troops in Saudi Arabia".

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

...What is your evidence for your comments about our troops in Saudi Arabia: "recall we got them the hell out of there after we invaded Iraq?" Can you show evidence that we removed all of our troops from Saudi Arabia?...

google it ~ an example;

THE STRUGGLE FOR IRAQ; Last American Combat Troops Quit Saudi Arabia

Quote:

...The withdrawal signaled the end of a long strategic arrangement, mutually beneficial until it fell victim to tensions resulting from the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks in the United States, in which 15 of 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens. Since then, the countries' fragile diplomatic relations have undergone considerable strain -- only worsened in recent months by the American military presence in the kingdom, American and Saudi officials said here this week...

BTW i'm sure there are some non-combat troops still there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by W.E.B. Du Bois

...Even if you could, it would still be difficult to see what your point is...

only that it cuts to the heart of your argument

Du Bois ~ i hope your not one of those who wants perpetual war?