Fix what we find to be wrong? I don't think you've even tried to understand what's really wrong here.

I'm afraid I can't do anything to help you.

I didn't read the article and get that the author was saying whites are still the cause of racial problems today. What I took from it, is that for some white people looking at the actual historical facts of what has happened throughout all of American history is pretty uncomfortable for them.
That for some white people, they'd rather only know about the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr, possibly Malcom X and you know, sports figures; and not actually know about the horrible racial discord that has been a part of this nations history.
I agree that on a racial/bigotry level, this country has made loads of progress. It's not like policeman are using fire hoses to control crowds of blacks anymore, right? I can go into any lunch counter, with my black GF and be seated and served.
Things have gotten better, in today's time.
But that there has been progress does not change the fact that a shitload of damage has been done.
People of Barack Obama's generation perhaps do not feel the effects of the damage done as first hand as someone of Rev Wright's generation.
But the effects are still there. It's not like all the generations before Obama's suddenly up and vanished.
Yes there is a cycle of poverty in this nation; it is not exclusive to blacks, or hispanics.
I received "free lunch" when I was in school; until recently I received a rent subsidy (and hope to qualify again) ; I am currently re-applying for food stamps and I get a check every month from the gov't for a disabling condition.
And I'm white.
My point is, I am a second or third generation "poor person". It is awfully hard to climb up past where and how you were raised. It's not impossible and tons of people have done it; but it is damn hard.
The people of Obama's generation, and those coming after are perhaps the first ever in this country who aren't having to deal with Jim Crow laws and the horrible reminders that their skin color can dictate everday basics for their life.
But it's gonna take more than anybody declaring "that's all history now" for the effects and the damage to go away.
I mean come on, even in this day and age, people are asking "is America ready for an African American president?"
Is the racial divide and hatred that has been a part of our history were truly not still an issue, this question would not even need be asked.

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"If you can't do something smart, do something right."

Tell me, in what way is the U.S. Government enforcing racially oppressive policies today? Instead of making statements with a condescending tone, name what policies are wrong, so that it can actually be debated. I need no help on being "enlightened" if that entails being an apologist for one man's hateful statements.

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Let's start with the criminal justice system.

Justice On Trial

Racial profiling:

One study in Maryland showed that 70% of drivers stopped on I-95 were black, when blacks constituted only 17.5% of drivers, as well as speeders overall.

Volusia Co., FL: Again, 70% of the traffic stops on the interstate were either black or hispanic, while only 5% of the drivers on that road were black or hispanic. Furthermore, those minority stops accounted for 80% of the vehicle searches, and minorities were detained for longer periods than whites.

In sworn testimony, DEA agents have stated their belief that most drug couriers are black females, and that being Hispanic or black was part of the profile they used to identify drug traffikers. DEA: that's federal racism.

A Demember 1999 report by the New York State Attorney General found that of 175,000 "stop and frisk" searches conducted by the NYPD from January of 1998 through March of 1999, almost 84% were of blacks and Hispanics, despite the fact that those groups constitute less than 1/2 of the city's population. By contrast, only 13% of the stops were of white New Yorkers, who comprise 43% of the city's population.

The rationale for profiling that blacks use drugs at a higher rate than whites is false: According the US Department of Health and Human Services National Household Survey on Drug Abuse, Preliminary Results from 1997, for the last 20 years, drug use rates among black youths have consistently been lower per capita than drug use rates among white youths.

Now I don't know about you, but if I am a law-abiding citizen, and I knew that every time I was stopped and questioned by the police while minding my own business, it was becasue of my skin color, don't you think I'd be seeing the country's racial values and the racial divide through a completely different set of lenses? You and I can go pretty much where we please, when we want. The same cannot be said for blacks and minorities of color in the US. The studies and facts bear it out. Just 11 days ago, a Geneva-based UN rights body strongly criticized the Bush administration for failing to meet international standards on racial justice and equality.

From 1988-1994, the US Attorney's Office with jurisdiction over Los Angeles prosecuted hundreds of blacks and Hispanics for Federal crack cocaine charges, but failed to prosecute a single white person on those same charges, while several hundred whites were prosecuted at the same time for crack charges in the state court system. A 1992 US Sentencing Commission Report determined that only minorities were prosecuted for crack offenses in over half of the federal judicial districts that handled crack cases. From 1992-1994, in New York, Texas, California, and Pennsylvania combined, only 8 whites were convicted on crack charges. Over that same two-year period, none were convicted in Denver, Boston, Miami, Chicago, Dallas, and Los Angeles. Meanwhile, thousands of minorities were sentenced to mandatory sentences averaging 84 months, with no possibility of parole.

Read the study I link at the beginning. You will see a consistent and methodic pattern of racial discrimination in the judicial system in the US.

The judicial system is but one area. If you want more, it's just a google search away.

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The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it. ~George Bernard Shaw

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

An argument can be successfully made that stating historical facts is uncomfortable for some....

Take a look around.

Then explain the social status and racial make-up of the top tier Oligarchy that the sheep still call:

"The Federal Government of the people, by the people and for the people."

Till you are willing to open your horizons past the talking points section, we've arrived at the standoff between differing opinions.

Profiling is not racism, it's smart policing. Find out what type of person (Be it age, location, etc.) that is most likely to be an offender of the crime you are looking for, and focus efforts so that the most possible amount of crime is stopped. A good example would be at an airport, if you could screen at most 10 of 200 passengers, would you screen the 10 30 year old Saudi Arabian nationals or 10 elderly women. Obviously screening the Arab guys will be far more efficient for catching a potential suicide bomber, as ~30 year old Muslim men are more likely than any other group to be hijackers.

Obviously there should always be probably cause before making the police stop. I'm not advocating a police state where one can be pulled over for their characteristics. But if probable cause exists, and a choice must be made, the person who fits the crime's demographic is probably the best bet, regardless of what those characteristics are. (Racial, age, car type, etc.)

As for the crack cocaine issue, it's largely because you don't find too many whites using crack cocaine. Those that do use cocaine seem to prefer powder cocaine. The prosecution rates are obviously because the Federal government can't afford to waste it's time fighting small time drug users in court if they hire themselves a big time lawyer. Previous criminal record also plays a big role. If someone already has a record and goes in for a drug use offense, are far less likely to receive leniency.

The drug used also matters. Crack Cocaine is a whole hell of a lot moire dangerous than Marijuana, so the drug use rates don't matter, what matters is what drug is used. I'm personally for decriminalization of all drug use, but that's another subject. Why Crack Cocaine punishment is harsher than Powder cocaine is another subject, that I believe has actually been changed by the congress rather recently..

Why blacks are incarcerated at higher rates than the usage may be worth looking into, but it absolutely does not prove racism by the justice department. There are many reasons that this could be occurring. Possibly whites are better for some reason at concealing usage, really I can't say. All of this really is irrelevant, because in order for the incarceration to occur, a crime must have been committed in the first place (Bar the very rare wrongful convictions). Thus they deserve none of our sympathy.

As a side note, this will be my last post about the justice departments policies, as this is a totally different subject, which someone can start a new thread if they wish to debate further.

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I am going to carefully and delicately weigh in on this conversation because I know it is heated on both sides.

First nearly everything Wright said was Correct (You have to watch the whole video not the one CNN or Fox cut up to vilify him, when you see the whole thing unedited you will be as pissed as I was at how the News Media portrayed this). The media did a lot of creative editing on this video in what can only be described as a deplorable attempt at deliberate vilification of the man.

A lot of what Wright said was accurate (again please view the real video to get the proper context of his remarks) and yes it made white people uncomfortable with him and Barack Obama due to their mutual affiliation with each other.

African Americans got a raw deal for hundreds of years in this country and it is shameful, regrettable and makes me so angry I would like to throttle the bigots. But you see I am not one of those white people who does not know his history in this country, I am not shocked to hear of this happening. Why? Because I already knew and was appalled by it. I just do not take the history lessons taught in school and say "yes, this is all right". I actually dig in to find information so no, all white people are not ignorant of this country's tragic historic record in dealing with African Americans or Native American Indians.

Now to Caltex's comments;

It is true we have for 50 years been trying to play catch up or to make ourselves feel better about the sins of our ignorant ancestors and their witless bigoted hate mongering. While many people think its time Affirmative action was scrapped because its now becoming "reverse racism" or that public assistance be done away with. (Food Stamps, Medicaid, etc) note that white people are using these programs too except for affirmative action which we do not qualify for.

Some of what you say here is true (but not much) with one major exception, racial profiling. Someone already posted an example of how bad racial profiling is in this country, this by itself would help to explain why "blacks commit crimes and get locked up at horrifically high rates". White, red, yellow we all commit crimes and we do it often whether it be running a light, not coming to a stop completely, robbery and murder. Now if suddenly decided to pull over 80% white people in this country for a month, it would then become "whites commit crimes and get locked up at horrifically high rates". It's not hard to make that statement when essentially African Americans in this country are living in a fish bowl and always under intense scrutiny.

As far as the drop out rates from school African Americans vs Hispanics and Whites. "30 percent of Hispanics are dropouts, 12.1 percent of blacks, and 8.6 percent of whites." This is not what I call a significant variance unless you're comparing the Hispanic rates to either the African American or white drop out rates, then that is significant.

Every Year, One-Half Million Students Drop Out of School - by School Reform News staff - The Heartland Institute

Wright is blaming whites for many of these ailments but you have to understand the generation he grew up in, then you can understand where his mindset is at. Now what I will agree to is his speech did seem in some places to promote racism and the "KKK" comment pissed me off because he made it sound like all whites believed in some bigoted racist garbage. The other thing I can agree to is the "Victim mentality" I grew up in Detroit and I saw a lot of this at the high school I went too, of course I could not say anything being white I was the minority there. Constantly hearing how African Americans were putting each other down or holding one another back with such negative comments always baffled me, should they not be encouraging and empowering each other? But guess what, in that same school I saw white kids doing and saying the same stupid shit. I think it's less about race and more about the environment less affluent people are forced to grow up in, it has very litle to do with the color of their skin.

Now as far as blaming America or whites, I do not agree to that NOW. 50 Years ago I would have 100% agreed. These days African Americans in many ways have more opportunities then white people often have available to them. Especially on the all important education front. I will agree that African Americans of THIS generation (the ones who did not grow up as slaves or have to deal with segregation) need to essentially pick themselves up by their boot straps and stop playing the victims. The older generations, were victims this one is not.

The other thing I will say is this; The older generation of whites are guilty as sin for the segregation and the horrible things it did 50 years ago. However this generation of whites is not, so lumping all white people together and vilifying them does not sit well with me at all. If we want to move passed the racial divide in this country we need to stop playing the blame game, pointing fingers and name calling. We need to work together hand in hand side by side to see that ALL ethnicitys have the same opportunities all children have the same access to Education without prejudice regardless of there skin color.

I do not understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp for everyone in this country.

By the way YES I am white, no I do not feel personally responsible for slavery, segregation or hate crimes well before I was born. I however do feel guilty and upset that it happened and I feel like we have a lot of work to do to achieve true racial equality in this country for all. No matter what there ethnicity or religious back ground may be.

We have a choice we can whine and complain over what some white ignorant jackasses did in the last few hundred years or we can move forward take personal responsibility for our own destiny and dreams and make the Country great again.

The choice is yours America.

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A politician thinks of the next election. A statesman, of the next generation.
- James Freeman Clarke

So you're telling me (and I'm actually supposed to believe) that if it were hypothesized (NOT proven, mind you) that whites were more likely to fit the profile of a particular crime, then you would be perfectly happy in the knowledge that you were 3-5 times more likely to be stopped, detained, searched, and questioned by authorities (with probable cause or not) on the basis of your skin color alone?

I know your posts better than that, Cal. You would scream bloody murder.

Which is EXACTLY what the NYPD stop-and-frisk program was all about.

Even when those demographic profiles are based upon erroneous assumptions?

Au contrere, mon frere! The study I linked:

1991-1993 falls directly on point of the time frame referenced in the Sentencing study. Whites represented over 50% of the users, but 0% of the prosecutions.

Your statement is a racial stereotype based on an erroneous assumption that is not borne out by the statistics. How fair is it to base profiles on the same type of assumptions?

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The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it. ~George Bernard Shaw

I reject your reality and substitute my own.

I agree with both you and Obama that anger is not productive.
But I still maintain that the article and especially the James Baldwin quote were not at all about blaming. They pointed to the lack of understanding, perhaps even the lack of POSSIBILITY of understanding from the white community. We have an intellectual knowledge of the harsh truths of our history, but an intellectual knowledge alone is quite limited.
As for Wright's remarks, they were certainly angry, and therefore, not productive. However, taken in context, would it seem that he was trying to say (in a graceless fashion) much the same thing as that article (which I agree with), or "Down with America!", which I disagree with???
I don't know because I don't know the context of his sermon.
Anyway, in a similar vein, here is another interesting article I just ran across today.
Frank Schaeffer: Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero - Politics on The Huffington Post

I disagree with the mandatory frisking then, I must have missed that part. But still, I am not against profiling, as I believe it to be efficient policing. I am however against police state tactics, where guilt is assumed. I would say the NYPD is guilty of police state tactics, and not racism for that ill thought plan. Innocence should always be presumed, but if probable cause exists, it is far more efficient to search people who fit the profile of the crime you're looking for, than to consider all people equally and waste police time searching 85 year old women for drugs. Profiling is key to finding murderers, etc.


Obviously not, I'm no cop, I really don't know who to look for nearly as well as they do, but I would trust their judgment in profiling, assuming they use fair methods and only harass citizens who they have probable cause to harass.


I was not aware that the stereotype was false. In my experience every, white cocaine user I've ever met has used powder, which led to my belief on the matter.

Like I said in the last post though, there really could be many reasons why it seems whites get away with it more. From the surveys being flawed and whites not honestly answering about their drug usage (I know when i was in high school they gave us a survey, and most of us wrote that we were drug addicts because we hated surveys), having better lawyers to plea down the charges, to being better at concealing usage. Those statistics don't prove racism. Even if it did show unfair prosecution (which it doesn't necessarily show), it would still be legal prosecution, but too much leniency to white drug users.

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